Member: jenifer d
Location: england swings
Remote Name: 64.114.194.171
Date: 23 Nov 2003
Time: 10:26 AM -0500

Comments

If I'm first my topic would be , getting over the shame of all that has happened in the past. I find that difficult. Every so often I think back to those days and the family that i shamed and embarresed and no matter how much I've changed since those days , it doesn't seem to count .


Member: David B
Location: KC, MO.
Remote Name: 171.75.225.185
Date: 23 Nov 2003
Time: 10:34 AM -0500

Comments

Hi, My name is David and I am an Alcoholic. I would suggest an topic Turning Point. I think my turning point took a long time, but i am glad I made that decision, to really seek out sobriety. I was really stubborn person on power. I thought it was just a matter of my will power and i could do most anything, Well I finally had to really look at my self and accept the problem, It was really the physical that i seen first. It was in other drunks i was drinking with seen the hands swelling the nurse said thats due to the liver going bad,later i seen my hands swelling but it was that i had to just quit the fight, and that was a long road to accept that, then i could listen to the AA program and start to practice these principles, and as i did these now i really want to seek and find God. It is an eternal journey 24 hrs a day 7 days a week but a most grateful one.


Member: AZbill
Location: azbill1172@cox.net
Remote Name: 68.0.184.118
Date: 23 Nov 2003
Time: 10:48 AM -0500

Comments

Hi! Bill here. Alcoholic from Arizona. I did a lot of damage when I was drinking. One of the things one of my earlier sponsors told me was, not to beat my self up. That I probably did the best I could with what I had to work with. Unfortunately, I did not have a heck of a lot to work with. After a couple of Fourth Steps I began to realize that he was right. There were a lot of things I did that I would not have done had I not been drinking. Through the Steps I managed to set most matters straight. I have change my behaviors. I am no longer ashamed of my past. I know that I had to step on every stepping stone along the way to get where I am today. But, If I forget. Even for one moment from where I came from; I could very well be back in that barroom wondering how in the heck I got there. My past has become my strength today. I always bear in mind that I was not a bad dude trying to get good, I was a sick person trying to get well. Thank you all very much I love you. Bill


Member: Amanda H
Location: NW Montana
Remote Name: 64.91.59.182
Date: 23 Nov 2003
Time: 01:52 PM -0500

Comments

Hi, I am Amanda and an alcoholic. Shame, ah yes… the bones we exhume from the past and then invite them in to haunt us. After four solid years of sobriety, a great deal of effort and time spent on the education on alcoholism, many dollars spent on counseling, tons of internal work, hours of prayer and hours of journaling, the shame still creeps in and stains my self-esteem. The shame inside my head can instantly remind me my failures in life. Out of the blue there I am completely overwhelmed. During those moments of shameful memories, voices inside of my head rail at me for celebrating my serenity because they "know" the “real” me. They remind me how ugly my life has been and for the sake of one drink could be again. I can wallow in my shame because in my head there are huge pools of it. The time I spend in this shame creates despair and the neighborhood of despair is a very dangerous place for me. It is a place I cannot allow myself to be in because it threatens my sobriety. I know I must get out of this place or succumb to the darkness that is inside. So where do I turn to and how do I climb out of this murky pit? I open my heart and turn my shame back over to my HP/my God. And when I turn all my shame back to God, I am given the strength to look forward not behind. In the silence of my prayers I find grace and grace becomes my center. No matter how painful it once was,he counsels my heart to recognize that my yesterdays are in my past and that I cannot change the past. And sinking into my old coping habits of drinking because of my shameful despair will only achieve the perpetuation of my heartbreaking past. Gently, he helps to me to see a way to use my shame to remind me of what I NEVER want to be again. And the line of demarcation is the decision to take a drink or to not take a drink. Shame tells me I am a loser. Grace tells me I have a future. So with prayer, I choose one more time not to drink. Without alcohol I am present, I am sober and I am able to make choices to live responsibly, kindly and in grace. By making this choice, I begin to create a new legacy of peaceful memories.


Member: Kelly M
Location: NH
Remote Name: 205.188.209.140
Date: 23 Nov 2003
Time: 04:20 PM -0500

Comments

Hi, I'm Kelly and I closely resemble an alcoholic.... cause I am one! Guilt is really the reverse side of the coin of Pride. Guilt aims at self destruction, and Pride aims at the destruction of others. I was taught to feel guilt a lot as a child, {Shame on you Kelly} and that excessive pride was a sin. I lived most of my life filled with self-hatred and doing all sorts of self destructive things at the willing, mercy of people who wanted to destroy me.... Go figure? Kelly ;)


Member: Carol M
Location: Montreal
Remote Name: 64.10.87.188
Date: 23 Nov 2003
Time: 05:53 PM -0500

Comments

Hi! I'm writing because I've been feeling bad all week end. The guilt and shame of the past are only 3 days away and I have to face the people that I offended tomorrow at work (and there is more than one). I don't know if I have the strenght to face them. Thanks for listening


Member: Amanda H
Location: NW Montana
Remote Name: 64.91.59.182
Date: 23 Nov 2003
Time: 05:56 PM -0500

Comments

Carol, turn your shame over to your HP. Pray and be as honest as you are able. Read my last post. Strength will come to you if you turn it over.


Member: Betsy
Location: Washington
Remote Name: 12.208.172.13
Date: 23 Nov 2003
Time: 07:07 PM -0500

Comments

Hi, I'm Betsy, an alcoholic. Sometimes I would get so wrapped up in shame that it was difficult to remember the most basic lessons I'd learned. "One day at a time," for one. When I was miserable with guilt it usually meant that I wasn't doing a very good job of staying in the moment, focusing on what was in front of me. Which of course ties in with the Serenity prayer, "...accept the things I cannot change...". Painful as it was, I was forced to accept that the only way my family would accept my amends was by my continued "good behavior." Staying close to the program (several meetings a week) constantly reminded me that moving forward in the steps, working with sponsors, new people, service work, would eventually change my life, which, indeed, it has. Hugs to you all, Betsy


Member: Jeff T.
Location: Ne.
Remote Name: 12.108.214.43
Date: 23 Nov 2003
Time: 09:36 PM -0500

Comments

Hi all I`m Jeff, an alcoholic. There are some times when i`m alone that i think of all the rotten things that i did when i drank, how could i have lived that way? How could i have hurt the ones that i love & treated then that way? This is when i turn to the God of my understanding for the right thoughts or actions, for he gives me the strength to do the right thing today. I cant hardly believe that anyone can live w/out some kind of guiding force. I need this in my life. Its as simple as the a b c`s of AA. "That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives. That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism. That God could and would if He were sought". I can not do this thing alone, being trapped in this alcoholic mind of mine is not a good place to be for me. If i give myself enuff rope i`ll hang for sure. When this happens i need to get to my sponcers house & start talking, get to a meeting, drop to my knee`s & start praying cause if i don`t then i get real miserable. Then i`m no good to no one, not even myself. I read somewhere that "most good ideas are simple". This is what work for me. Thanks...


Member: jules h.
Location: Iowa
Remote Name: 216.248.113.247
Date: 23 Nov 2003
Time: 11:15 PM -0500

Comments

Hi all, jules here, and I'm an alcoholic... When I was newly sober, an oldtimer at meetings I attended would reinforce over and over again, "Keep doin what you're doin and you'll keep gettin what you're gettin!" When drinking, I always did things I was ashamed of, guilt, shame and remorse were my constant companions. Now that I'm sober,I don't do those things I used to that made me feel yuky and through praticing the AA program, I'm trying to live the right way, thank GOD! But like it was said, I don't ever want to forget where I came from! But I don't have to dwell on it either, alot of shame was lifted when I did steps 4,5,6&7 in regards to forgiving myself. Thanks for letting me share and GOD bless you all............Have a serene Thanksgiving.......


Member: Pi Koan
Location: New York
Remote Name: 64.12.96.233
Date: 24 Nov 2003
Time: 05:55 AM -0500

Comments

Consumption feeds on fear and that is the reason why we see people that have bloated bodies way out of proportion that could be exhibited in carnival freak shows but it has become a normal sight that we don't get scared anymore.


Member: Robert H
Location: Columbus, OH.
Remote Name: 67.38.171.178
Date: 24 Nov 2003
Time: 06:53 AM -0500

Comments

Hi all, Robert here, an alcoholic. Sometimes I am very saddened by the things that I have done. Especially when I think of the things I have done to other people. However, I have to remind myself that everything that I have done has brought me to where I am today. Also, I am grateful that there are not more things on that list, which would certainly be the case if I was still drinking. That is why I think it is important to follow the steps. Eight and Nine really help you to take the time to say I'm sorry for what you have done. After you do that, there is nothing else you can do. Also, thinking about those things helps me to stay sober because I don't want to do them again! God Bless all, Robert www.alcoholrecovery.net


Member: Craig L (Dogmanor@yahoo.com)
Location: Aloha, Oregon
Remote Name: 65.102.43.100
Date: 24 Nov 2003
Time: 09:39 AM -0500

Comments

Craig L, another real alcoholic (page 21), I also will often settle back into my old habits of anxiety and fear around past mistakes. I notice this is amplified when I don't practice my daily prayer and meditation. It has been a little while since my last drink and I have done the 9th around most of the horrible things I did while drinking. Today it is the day to day behaviors I will regret. Being nasty on the road or at the grocery store, conflicts with co-workers and dishonesty will all rob me of my serenity. So far making a concsious contact with God daily has never failed to restore me to Peace.


Member: Pi Koan
Location: New York
Remote Name: 152.163.253.70
Date: 24 Nov 2003
Time: 11:09 AM -0500

Comments

I am sorry if I had that comment above but the first sentences were erased. I'll try to recollect my thoughts again if I could. When I was young my father used to torture me by beating me up with his belt or elecric wires, etc. and then let me kneel in front of him and then do his shaming and psychological abuse on me. He was proud to tell me that his mother and father would wake them up in the wee hours of the morning so that each one of them could get a morning scolding. He calls it mental calisthinics (I hope I spelled the word right). They would do this to every person that is dependent on that household and praise people who have earned their living and made it good in the world. They got that from the tradition of slavery by the spaniards where Spanish Catholic Priests and other land owners used to beat the crap out of them because they were conditioned to believed that they are no good and a bunch of savages to be treated as a beast of burden. So this has been handed down to me because I was dependent on my father so it is right for him to do that. In fact looking at this objectively I am also grateful for this training since when I got out into this world of ours it is pretty much a dog eats dog world and people give the outsider underdog as much hell. But I have internalized this philosphy of life that is torturing oneself or others that are dependent on you that sometimes I got electric bolts of overwhelming shame and guilt and then panic and fear of who I am and everything about me. Soon enough I learned that society is all about predation and the more people predate and inflict fear the more the have power over their victims for the name of control and authority. In fact morality states to individuals that we attack people because we are the good guys therefore it is right for us to inflict evil on them becasue they are the bad guys and they deserve such treatment. I see this in every encounter I have mostly with people that are in authority. So its actually a society based on fear and it has done a pretty good job because 3/4ths of the prison system acccording to statistical surveys are minorities and of course poor people. In relates to the earlier concept of mine where this is actually handed down from their masters to their slaves. And for a master to retain his position like the Spanish Friars they have inculcate into their minds that they are the Masters by God so the gods on their pictures were of their own kind of people. Seeing this the slaves themselves hated their own physical attributes because they are not of the same kind like their masters and mostly scary looking demons and gorillas and apes (beasts of burden) are portrayed like their faces and their built. Sure there is lot sof gun murders more than any country in the world many many more times than the next country in line of murders but the crimes are most often street crimes, the slaves killing each other, minorities versus minorities. But see I know people like you who have the authority to censor this would not print this or if you do people would not believe this because see when you write things in here you say about how moral you are and watching our defects of character, that it was fault and you cannot change people places and things, etc. etc. but the truth is that you know better than that. Again lies attract but truth repels just see.


Member: Italiangirl
Location: Canada
Remote Name: 24.69.255.203
Date: 24 Nov 2003
Time: 12:30 PM -0500

Comments

Hi I'm a alcholic my name Savay. I truly know in my heart that as soon as I surrendered my life to what is and not what was things started to change. I had a lot of shitty things happen to me. Things when i was a child things that shouldnt of happened. Ive done lots of step work around it and now Im free of the shame and giult doing steps 4 through 9 has helped me to move on with life sober. I still have alot of life stuff going on My grandma died this spring, My dad has prostate cancer and is having surgery today my Mom just got diagnoise with skin cancer and is having surgery in dec and my uncle is in the hospital and has short time to live with Lung cancer to live all this stuff is hard emotional and is life I just dont drink talk to my sponcer and go to lots of meetings especially my home group thats where they know me best. I ask for prayers and help someone eles. and thats how I make it through and pray lots of praying and I step out of the way and let my god do the rest. Cause its gods job Please Pray for my family, If you have some time in your prayers love in service Italian Girl Canada


Member: ljs
Location: usa
Remote Name: 216.138.5.59
Date: 24 Nov 2003
Time: 02:49 PM -0500

Comments

I can't go back and re-do my past. If I live in the past..I'm bound to repeat it. What I can do is face up to the problems of my past and its causes..then do something about it. Thats where AA comes in. Practice the program. It helped me outlive my past. I now live for today and each day gets better. Whether you just finished an embarassing bender this past weekend or just can't shake off longer term stuff..AA helps.


Member: Joe B.
Location: Charleston,W.V.
Remote Name: 205.188.209.140
Date: 24 Nov 2003
Time: 03:09 PM -0500

Comments

Hi gang. I think the disease concept of Alcoholism helped me get over the shame of being sick. That was over 25 years ago, and its still true today. Im still a drunk trying to do my best today.


Member: Kathleen
Location: Florida
Remote Name: 209.208.79.163
Date: 24 Nov 2003
Time: 04:00 PM -0500

Comments

Hello everyone, Kathleen here alcoholic. When I first got to AA I was full of self hatred, remorse, shame, and self pity. After years of in and out of the program I finally got a hold of a sponser who helped me walk through the steps. The promises have come true and one of the promises is "we will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it." Pages 83 and 84 of the big book... "IF we are painstaking about this phase of our development..."... wonderful promises and they do come true. Peace Kathleen


Member: ~L~
Location: lost angeles
Remote Name: 66.159.196.58
Date: 24 Nov 2003
Time: 04:16 PM -0500

Comments

Hi, I am L and basically after 6 years of one of the most hurtful experiences of my life (my bf decided i wasn't good enough anymore) I slammed myself into a bottle to escape the pain. well now after having several problems i know i have to give this crap up. only wish i could get over the love i have for the one who left me. nothing has worked and i need to clear myself of the spirits the haunt me. time for me to grow up and face the pain like a real woman i suppose. without the alcohol.


Member: G
Location: USA
Remote Name: 68.98.52.248
Date: 24 Nov 2003
Time: 10:02 PM -0500

Comments

Hi everyone, My name is G and I am a grateful recovering alchoholic. This is my first ever visit on a cyber site for AA. I feel a little weird. Thanks to everyone who has shared. I identified with a lot of what has been said. I too struggle with shame. I get embarassed of the things that happened like they happened yesterday and very regretful of the time lost. I have been sober for over 8 years and still get swollen with shame and pain. I am sober enough to know that when I don't practice the principles of this program, I get a negative perspective that removes all hope from the panoramic scope of my mind. I have no excuses for being in that frame of mind, its all my own doing and a direct result of my lack of effort to build enough structure into my day by day life that enables me to practice the principles. If I don't make the time available to do the principles, I will suffer, it is that simple. The more sober I get, the less time it takes to practice the principles. With respect to understanding and completeing Step 4, my sponsor had me go back and look at the character assassination I did on myself. After his 25 years (+8 now) of sobriety it was his belief we do a lot of hurtful things to ourselves in the name of regret. We keep living it and not just remembering it. I struggle with maintaining the difference, but it definitely gets easier. Many thanks to all and I plan to be back. It's been a great meeting so far.


Member: anil gupta
Location: Mt Vernon,IL
Remote Name: 172.175.62.222
Date: 25 Nov 2003
Time: 09:10 AM -0500

Comments

I am an alcoholic to me also i felt and still feel ashamed and stay in guilt for I what I had done in the past I have trouble meeting friends and people where I had made a fool of my self many times while I was drinking each time that thought occurs it is not easy I only take day at time and pray to my hp that today will be or next day will be a better day follow my steps attend my meetings and work constantly on my steps 4 and 5. thanks to aa and alanon.


Member: Kim D
Location: Bridgewater
Remote Name: 209.113.227.200
Date: 25 Nov 2003
Time: 10:03 AM -0500

Comments

To paraphrase the Big Book... "No matter how far down the scale we went, we can see how our experience can benefit others." Kim here, alcoholic. I try and remember that saying when I am feeling shame about something I've done... that through sharing my experience someone might benefit further down the line. The Steps are here to help us clear up the wreckage of the past - have right relations with our fellows - and be of service to others. By staying sober ODAAT and trying to change the person I brought in the halls (the alkie me), I no longer feel the weight of shame like I did while drinking. We get self-esteem by committing esteemable acts.


Member: carl lucero
Location: albuquerque nm
Remote Name: 66.69.48.148
Date: 25 Nov 2003
Time: 04:10 PM -0500

Comments

Great topic for Oprah, Ricki Lake, or Jerry Springer.


Member: Art W.
Location: Pennsylvania
Remote Name: 24.238.83.168
Date: 25 Nov 2003
Time: 08:13 PM -0500

Comments

Hi, my name is Art, and I am an alcoholic. I remember the shame I felt for all of the pain, and damage I was responsible for while drinking, and during the years of a dry drunk. Thank you for the subject. I first saw this subject yesterday, and had to recall those days, of overwhelming shame during the first year in AA. I did a lot of work. I read the first 164 pages, line by line, and Kentucky Joe would drag me out of a meeting and tell me to quit that!. I was very intense, in trying to figure out the meaning of all that I read at every meeting. I was told that I was too hard on myself; that I took too much credit for too many problems. The first year for me was very confusing. One peice of advise I heard throughout, turns out to be the most important for me, and that was, "keep showing up." Even when I didn't want to, even when I was losing relationship, property, money..... keep showing up, and so on. I don't have much problem with shame these days. I can share the period I experienced with others. Wow, what a fantastic site. Suddenly, I cannot make a lot of meetings. This site is a keeper. Thank you for letting me share.


Member: Kelly M
Location: NH
Remote Name: 152.163.253.70
Date: 25 Nov 2003
Time: 10:28 PM -0500

Comments

Hi All, Kelly an alcoholic, double dipping. In my above post I wrote guilt instead of shame. I easily confuse the two! There is a difference though. Guilt says, I made a mistake or committed an offense. It's feeling responsible for something you did. Shame says, your a disgrace. You feel burned up by feeling shame. Shame say's there is something wrong inside of you that is not fixable. Guilt is fixable. Shame for me is much worse because it lead to low self esteem and then self-hatred. I felt I was not good enough to live. I got involved with people who treated me badly because I felt that was what I deserved. In my end stage drinking I lost shame because I did not care anymore. That was a turning point for me to realize that I did not care about myself enough to feel shame at certain bad things I did. Today I care about myself a lot more and have my self esteem back. Oh, I don't look in the mirror and say I love you yet but I can at least look and even smile! That's a start! Thanks for letting me share. Kelly :)


Member: Amanda H
Location: NW Montana
Remote Name: 12.150.66.91
Date: 26 Nov 2003
Time: 12:58 AM -0500

Comments

Amanada,and an alcoholic. I've had a bad day at work and the shares have helped me more than I can say.Thank you! I loved the statement, "We gain esteem by doing esteemable things." That is so true. So no matter what, today is past. When I was still drinking, if I had a bad day I would try to drink the stress away. Now I go to a real or cyber meeting. The shares of others remind me that drinking won't help the day get any better. Drinking will make waking up in the morning shameful. Thank you for being there. It is nice to know I am not alone dealing with this blasted disease!


Member: Loripdx
Location: Portland, OR
Remote Name: 4.5.115.219
Date: 26 Nov 2003
Time: 02:50 AM -0500

Comments

Hi, everybody. I'm Lori, and I'm an alcoholic and an addict in recovery for 17+ years. I'm having a tough time even *thinking* about the topic, but I need you all right now very much. So here goes: My sister Ginny's son, Brian, died this morning of an overdose. I don't think he intended to kill himself--I suppose the drugs were just too "good". When I'd visited my family in New Jersey this past August (I live in Portland, Oregon), I hung out with him quite a bit, offering my experience, strength & hope with regard to AA/NA. He did put together 100 days on November 4th--but now he's gone. He just turned 21 years old. I'm so sad. I don't even have the words. Can you all say lots and lots of prayers for my sister Ginny? She was divorced from Brian's father when Brian was around 3 years old, and then Brian's father died of cancer when Brian was 13 years old. So she's doing this essentially all alone. I can't even imagine what it's like to lose a child. I'm trying to get to New Jersey for the funeral on Friday, but it's already proving almost impossible to find a flight, what with the holiday weekend. The addict/alcoholic part of me (we do tend to have quite the macabre sense of humor, no?) is thinking, Geez, Bri, you had to go and die on a holiday weekend, huh? So you needed the attention that bad, huh? Have to go and get buried on my birthday, huh? Boy, I'm gonna miss him so damn much. He was such a lovely person. So very cool. He loved The Dave Matthews Band, so it'll be playing at his funeral. He's being buried with his 90-day sobriety chip in hand, and he'll have dark brown hair (a few days ago when I last spoke with him, that's what he was doing: dying his hair dark brown since my sister bought the wrong color for herself). As a person in recovery, this is really driving home my mortality. All it takes is one drink or one bag of dope or one pill, and it could be me. Very easily. When I was new in recovery and heard of a fellow addict dying, I would always have this tiny underneath-it-all feeling of gratitude that it wasn't me. Not today. I'm just so sad that Brian is gone. Whether you're new to the program or an old-timer, please keep coming back. I need all of you right now to help me get through this sad time. Thanks for allowing me to share. Lori


Member: Dietrich M
Location: Kabul, Afghanistan for now!
Remote Name: 217.21.147.133
Date: 26 Nov 2003
Time: 03:43 AM -0500

Comments

OM SHANTI TO ALL, NAMASTE! To Lori: my prayers are yours, and for those who have been affected by such a loss! Keep yourself happy, and put a smile in your heart for Brian, I too almost died one time, not as a result of an over dose, but as a result of an attempted suicide, we speak of shame, well after doing my 4th and 5th, I have no shame left that will get me drunk, just the result of todays actions. So Lori, please keep it real. Your a powerful example of this program at work in us, keep up the good work. W/ love from accross the big pond, your friend Dietrich! OM SHANTI!


Member: Pi Koan
Location: New York
Remote Name: 205.188.209.140
Date: 26 Nov 2003
Time: 05:47 AM -0500

Comments

I just need to have a follow up from the above comments that I made before people start concluding that its Black Propaganda, or I'm a commie, or anti-"cult" ure, or other xenophobic bumpkin thinking. I was feeling guilty since I was the only one who was outof line and it seemed that everybody is into the "programme" way making me the somewhat the bad guy amongst the good. I do admire though that the Higher Powers of this site post it since the last time that I had very important things said, they did erase it from the rest of the posts. I guess they couldn't handle the truth of what I said, now I understand, even God- Jesus Christ and Socrates and Galileo paid dearly for the truth, that's just normal. But I guess that's why democracy is worth fighting for because it has freedom of expression for what you believe. What they don't say do is that you also have to suffer the consequences of that by being ostracized,ridiculed and mocked by the mainstream. You guys are mainstream, I hear your kind of sharing all the time and believe me I am a compulsive meeting-goer and I have been around this country especially in big cities. I heard it over and over and over again, its like the preamble and the steps and the "I'm alcoholic" name tag everytime you speak, and as like the saying goes, "Insanity is defined as repeating the act again and again so that everytime you think you could achieve a different result." But what I 'm gonna say regarding my first comment above is it's all too well that we begin to understand our humanity. Perhaps we could extend this understanding to people who have committed crimes like for instance those terrorists attacks, criminals you see in cops, those snipers, young kids shooting inside their schools, why? Because I know all you see is the act but not why they have acted such. When I was in New York I see people who were very tough and rude but what did I see after the attacks people on big posters with their crying and grimacing faces. See my point here is that when the victim is victimized by the mainstream it actually tolerate and encourage victimizers to do so but they couldn't relate when the victims snaps and decide to do what had been done to them for so long. The mainstream doesn't want to acknowledge and take responsibility for its actions because for them they are always the moralizing good guys doing their work for God and nation. And I know you will say that I never experienced being victimized but that's because you are with the victimizers' class and kind. Just ask some Peace Corps what their experience are in other places and you will get an idea about this whole thing I'm talking about. Now of course this is human nature and we are not claiming to be the exception but don't you think this has to stop right now? This "I am so moral and I belong to the moral good cop gang busters of the world and I could ridicule and mock people that are underdogs because that is my idea of free speech" kind of thing. The truth is contrary to our cliche'" we could not change people, places and situations but only ourselves" is in all honesty a lie. People could influence their environment and likewise there are character defects that we have to live with ourselves as long as we live. But I know this is one of our character defects that we like to do even tough we know better, that is to victimize and prey on the weakest link, because this our way to be happy and feel good about ourselves that we have the power and authority and control. Of course not all people are like this but if nobody stands up and tolerates this kind of attitude we are just good at, "look at me, I am doing the steps and I'm grateful for you people because if not I could have been in a very worst condition" superficiality all the time without even knowing why those bad things are happening in our midst.


Member: Lori F.
Location: Stow, OH
Remote Name: 65.25.124.199
Date: 26 Nov 2003
Time: 10:33 AM -0500

Comments

Hi. Lori F., alcoholic. When I am depressed or feeling ashamed, it is because I am living in the past; when I am anxious or frightened, it is because I am living in the future. If all of this seems simple, redundant, or self-serving, keep in mind that it works! It really does! The truth is that, by working the steps of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, we are freed from the bondage of self and fitted for maximum service to our Higher Power and others. Love and grace to all, and KCB. Thanks for all the comments. Lori


Member: Kim
Location: KC
Remote Name: 12.167.75.11
Date: 26 Nov 2003
Time: 01:31 PM -0500

Comments

Jenifer - you won't believe it! This month's grapevine has an article in it that deals with your issue. Hang in there, as we begin to see how our experience can benefit others, we begin to lose our fear or today, tomorrow or the hereafter!


Member: Darell J
Location: LA
Remote Name: 205.143.94.4
Date: 26 Nov 2003
Time: 05:19 PM -0500

Comments

Darell J. Alcoholic.When I was new (1988) I was told that I was not a bad person trying to be good, but a sick person that needed to recover. The things that I did, I could not completely ignore, but I stayed so busy that I did not have a lot of time to dwell in the past. When I did step 9 it helped me to right a lot of my wrongs. I still experience negative thoughts about the past, but recognize them as the disease!


Member: Norman C
Location: Reading PA
Remote Name: 199.224.114.132
Date: 26 Nov 2003
Time: 09:19 PM -0500

Comments

A while ago I realized that the past is gone. I can attempt to right wrongs, but cannot re-write it, and it is a waste of time to rehash it. The only thing I can do is to try to do better.


Member: Rarely
Location: Canada
Remote Name: 142.161.180.131
Date: 27 Nov 2003
Time: 11:10 AM -0500

Comments

Rarely here and Im an alcoholic. Just thought Id throw in my two cents on the subject from a different point of view, I was kind of born on the last rung of the ladder, no parents, love scrupples education, Im a half breed Indian. really never cared about anything or anybody, hitting bottom was just a drink away. I drank in the gutter with all the losers and enjoyed doing so, I look 20-25 years younger than I am ( thks A.A. ) people ask what I owe my youthful looks to and I reply " jail house food," Im an old timer over 30 years sober when first sober I got a job in the gold mine up northern Canada pay runs close to a $100.000 a year. Now I havent even got a grade six. So I haven't forgot where I came from. I know for a guy like me that its only a drink away, when Im reminded of that I don't mind, and when I find myself on a high horse I remind myself and those around me that the way it is now is not the way it has always been. Not to long ago I was playing in a celebrity golf tournement on about the third day of rubbing up against all the big shots I said to the fourth some in my group " the last time I had this much fun was when I was drinking rubby on main street," Well they almost fell down on the green laughing. In my sobriety there is NO room for false pride. OR for that matter room for me to think Im some body that Im not.


Member: Eric W
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
Remote Name: 206.72.64.232
Date: 27 Nov 2003
Time: 01:21 PM -0500

Comments

Hi, I'm Eric W. and I am an alcoholic. First I will check in. Oh, and for all the Americans, Happy Thanksgiving. I am in a beautiful location, on vacation. However, this is one of the last places I drank, before I got sober just shy of two years ago. Before I left on this trip, my sponsor told me to bring a big book and read it. Also, I got a directory of English language meetings outside of the US (the place where I am right now is in Mexico). I located a meeting, and with best intentions planned to go there this morning. However, since I am an alcoholic I still frequently do NOT do things that are good for me, so I overslept and missed the meeting. Now, the topic of not feeling shame is a great one for me because I was told early on "this is a program of action -- it is not imporant what you think, but what you do." So, instead of indulging in these shameful feelings I DID read my Big Book (the chapter called "There Is a Solution."). Then, in glancing through the AA International directory I came upon a page that listed online resourcs. Talk about a God Shot. So here I am. I thank my higher power, whom I choose to call God, that there is an online meeting to attend. This program really, really works, if I work it. My prayers to all the those who have posted that are going through tough times. Remember, nothing is so bad that a drink won't make worse. Love to you all. Eric W


Member: Miles
Location: CNY
Remote Name: 24.58.250.12
Date: 27 Nov 2003
Time: 08:22 PM -0500

Comments

Hi I just want to say that I too feel a lot of shame for the things I have done, and I'm pretty sure that will continue throughout my life. Like any feeling, it seems to come and go. But, it definitely has a cause, and is a warning device that "corrects" our behavior. Sometimes people hold on to it too much and dwell on it. I probably am one of these people. It can drag you down so much that you don't want to take any risks, because you think you will regret it later. But you end up regretting it more because you didn't take the chance. Then you take a stupid chance and the cycle continues. I don't know. I'm having trouble really stepping outside myself today. I don't have it all figured out. Thanks.


Member: Robert T
Location: Beaverton,Oregon
Remote Name: 67.168.236.201
Date: 27 Nov 2003
Time: 10:27 PM -0500

Comments

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYBODY!! IT'S A WONDERFUL DAY TO BE CLEAN! KEEP ON KEEPIN'ON


Member: davidh
Location: Nashville T N
Remote Name: 68.53.118.15
Date: 27 Nov 2003
Time: 10:50 PM -0500

Comments

David aolcoholic, THis is a great topic. When I was still drinking I was the tonado the book talks about, causing distruction with everyybody I was close to. Thank GOd for these steps and making amends. No Im not proud of a lot of the stuff I did but I dont have to carry it all aound today. I cant change the past but i can deal with it through God and the steps. Glad to be sober another day.


Member: Ardis ;) 4-11-85
Location: Central Florida Gulf Coast
Remote Name: 24.161.241.255
Date: 27 Nov 2003
Time: 10:53 PM -0500

Comments

I'm Ardis, I'm a female recovered alcoholic. Pi Koan, you lost me in your postings. Do you really believe that you are so important that the Staying Cyber Tech volunteers deleted part of your post, come on guy, be realistic. I'm from the Purple Race, what has your post to do with Black Propaganda? Like mine has to do with Purple? Have you ever heard of an Attitude Adjustment or a glass half full of water? Or every adversity has the seed of an opportunity? I must be living in a different world than yours, life is darn good here, one day after another right into the now. The last time I looked into the Big Book it was about MY SIDE of the street I needed to keep clean. Trust God/Spirit, clean house and help others. When I came into AA, my thoughts and actions were like a glass full of dirty water. At times I woke up in the middle of the night full of shame, how could I have done this or that? Especially as a mother, that horrible shame to involve/expose my children to my alcoholic drinking and acting. When I cam into AA I learned a new way of living, acting and thinking. It was like putting that dirty glass of water under a constant drip of clean water, sooner or later the water in that glass got completely cleansed by right living. It may take while, however, the faster one does the Steps, the faster the right living starts. Especially during step 9, that's when the real cleansing of my side of the street started for me. The Program of AA (the 12 Steps) are a Program of action, no action, no result! I encourage all to not put the Steps off in order they were written, a whole new world will open up, the 4th dimension. A way of living life one could not have known existed, it's a great trip, full of joy not to have to live with shame, guilt, envy, greed, gluttony in all its forms, anger, sloth, revenge, negativity, false pride, etc. All instincts gone astray. I wish for all of us a full life into the solution, God bless. Ardis - omardis at yahoo.com


Member: PappyPaw
Location: Sourt Central Mi
Remote Name: 66.231.35.31
Date: 28 Nov 2003
Time: 10:54 AM -0500

Comments

Hi Gang! I am PappyPaw and I am a grateful recovering alcoholic. It is good to have the needed "Spiritual tools" to take our soiled past and turn it into solid bed-rock onto which we step out of our leaking boat which sails a strife torn sea of dispair and leave behind the termoil and self destruction. With the help of God and the "Spirituality" of the group I can cleanse my "side of the street" and grow into a way God would have it. Thank you all for the "Spititual Gifts" you so freely gave to me this day. Love PappyPaw


Member: kym
Location: pdx
Remote Name: 67.160.162.20
Date: 28 Nov 2003
Time: 11:57 PM -0500

Comments

kym alcoholic shame can be a great motivator because with shame comes a great deal of emotional pain like they say when we get enough pain we usually are willing to do something about it i have an 9 year old daughter who is constantly trying to throw stuff up in my face about the 2 yrs i went out on a relapse even though i was sober for the first 7 yrs of her life i have learned not to be shamed into anything the things i do today bring me closer to the serenity and spirituality i came to the rooms for i have learned that god would want me to be happy and helpful and all the awful things i have done are learning tools for today they are things that i have esxperienced and grown from as long as i dont keep repeating those shameful things they do not affect me in a negative way lori my prayers are with your sister it is very difficult to lose someone and especially your own child there is a woman in portland that lost her 19 yr old son due to this disease he killes a boy in a bar in a blackout and then he himself was killed in prison this disease SUCKS this woman has over 10 yrs sobriety and is a gift to us in portland she still to this dsy makes it to 1 meeting a day min i hope that we will run into yoyu one day in a meeting. thanx for letting me share kym


Member: Beth H.
Location: Chesterfield, MI
Remote Name: 64.12.96.233
Date: 29 Nov 2003
Time: 02:32 AM -0500

Comments

Hi I'm Beth and I am an alcoholic. The overuse of negative feelings such as shame is something I do to keep myself down. If I have made my ammends there should be no reason for me to feel that feeling any longer... I should let it go. However, I think it is where my mind takes me when it's trying to "set me up" to use. I must remember to ask God daily to remove these character defects. I am not perfect...I must take action and tell myself to "STOP IT" when my mind goes there.


Member: KJC
Location: Grove City , OH
Remote Name: 65.60.245.215
Date: 29 Nov 2003
Time: 04:52 AM -0500

Comments

Hi all, great topic. I am sorry to here about the young mans overdose mentioned. God Bless you. ~L~, Just wanted to say welcome back. Unrequited love and rejection can be devastating too. These days it is not shame that srews me up so much it's the guilt over poor decisions and procrastination. The quality of my problems today are much improved. I used to be a lush and a real lost puppy. Now i am just directionally challenged. Shame for me took alot of inventory to put into check and a lot of helping others to get me out of myself long enough to let the big HP heal me up. I am truly thankful for all the comments on this site. I really get a lot of perspective from hearing everyones thoughts. I was feeling sorry fopr my self because I am totally broke (self imposed finacial crisis), NOW, I see that I need to be grateful that I am not either dead or wishing i was. I too intentionally over dosed and almost died. Before I found this progran I didn't know that there were solutions to my problems and that my feelings at the moment may be low but that they always change if I just hang in there and reach out for help when I really need it. I used to be affraid that asking for help meant I was weak or defective some how. Now I now that for me it is a requirement if I want to live. I realize that there is no shame in admitting I need help or that I have no clue how to do somethings. Accepting my self as a flawed person as wel as a usefull one helps me to stay alive. I have to see the good and the bad in myself and make th appropriate changes to improve. Thanks so much all again. I love this site. KJC


Member: Mike L
Location: kzoo Mi
Remote Name: 67.72.225.160
Date: 29 Nov 2003
Time: 08:52 AM -0500

Comments

Hi, I find myself getting confused at times about why I still fall victim to the could have, should haves. I wonder why I still rehash that crap when things are going so good now and for me I've found it's when I forget how good things are now or I start taking the now for granted that the past once again intrudes on the present. There's nothing wrong with feeling guilt about the past but once that turns itself into shame, I'm almost guaranteed of repeating it because I'm convinced that I can do no better


Member: Pi Koan
Location: New York
Remote Name: 205.188.209.140
Date: 29 Nov 2003
Time: 11:10 AM -0500

Comments

This is to Ardis my friend and all those who think that way off line and since the topic is about the psychology of shame maybe you would like to expand your Universe of understanding and check out these websites (and many more in the web) www.birchmore.org/Psychodynamics_of_Scapegoating www.birchmore.org/Koinonia.pdf www.birchmore.org/Individuation_and_Narcissism.pdf Okay because youre reality is not the only reality my dear, see there are more than 4000 children who die out of malnutrition and diseases that are preventable everyday, so just think what kind of reality they have to compare to yours.


Member: John S.
Location: Arizona
Remote Name: 67.3.170.77
Date: 29 Nov 2003
Time: 11:27 PM -0500

Comments

Hello. John here. Shame is a useless emotion. So is self-pity. Beth is right about making amends. Making amends relieves us of much of the insanity of our past. I heard a quote the other day that sums it up for me as an alcoholic: "I've been through many terrible things in my life...and some of them really happened..." Today I live in the present & my life is a joy. By the way, would someone give Pi Koan web addresses of some political chatrooms. Or is he just being a newcomer?


Member: Rarely
Location: Canada
Remote Name: 206.45.167.197
Date: 30 Nov 2003
Time: 06:43 AM -0500

Comments

Hey Pi Koan 4000 children dying every day from malnutrition eh. Well name one who died last Thursday, and if you can't remember that far back name one that died yesterday.