Member: dennis bubke
Location: holstein iowa
Remote Name: 207.177.14.33
Date: 16 Nov 2003
Time: 08:06 AM -0500

Comments

How about the topic of making amends to yourself.............I have a hard time with this.......A counselor told me once that the first person you need to make amends to is yourself....thanks


Member: Paris Troy
Location: New York
Remote Name: 172.202.238.35
Date: 16 Nov 2003
Time: 11:13 AM -0500

Comments

Hi Paris here. You might think that I'm a woman with the same name with that celebrity but Paris in Greek Mythology is actually a man. And like the guy I was named after I too is pursuing the love of my life who is married and that I know is my downfall. We do things that we know are harmful and self defeating for us but we still do it anyway because we are here to be destroyed. Hey if you are not drinking youre smoking,or engaging in some form of compulsive acts even drinking too much coffee is bad for you. But what the heck, right? Exactly!


Member: NCD
Location: Colorado
Remote Name: 67.4.77.221
Date: 16 Nov 2003
Time: 11:41 AM -0500

Comments

Good Morning, I was reading the Grapvine this morning, and thought I might check out this site to share some E,S & H. Getting out of myself is one of the ways I can make amends to myself, not thinking about me all the time, which I'm pretty darn good at. It was very difficult in early sobriety to stop the constant racing thoughts in my head, worrying about the future, regretting the past...etc.. I had two young daughters, and was full of anger, rage, guilt, self-pity, you name the negative emotion I had it! I hated the world and everyone in it. Coming to grips with the fact that those feelings stemmed from my own self hatred took some time. I came from a single-mother, absent alcoholic-father family, youngest of eleven children, and carried on dad's disease. What a gift to have been lead to AA and given a second chance at life. To end the cycle of alcoholism in my family. This has taken me a few twenty four hours to be truly grateful for. I had to learn where my self-loathing stemmed from, some things were obvious: hurting my children, being a drunk, creating a life I never wanted, and on and on. I have sought out outside help since I got sober, starting with the suggestion by my sponsor to get parenting counseling. From there I had to get help with my own "Issues", including how I was raised (which wasn't pretty), post-traumatic stress disorder, from a sexual assault, and various other things I created from my alcoholic personality. I did this because I was sick and tired of being my own worst enemy, and having that anger fuel my hatred and rage towards the people I loved the most, and the world. Learning to love myself took time, and it was in my higher powers time, not mine. Forgiving myself for things I did, or things that others did to me has come with my growthe in sobriety and giving back to others that which was so lovingly given to me. I had to reverse all the negative tapes in my head with positive ones, even when I didn't really mean it, over and over until it became the way I thought. I sponsor two women who are very much like who I was and I tell them repeatedly, because I had to be told repeatedly, that repetition and consistency are the keys to changing the character defects. I had to pray, most importantly, for my HP to help me be the person it would have me be, and to carry me through the times when I didn't think I could go on. "I will try not to do that again" became something I said to my kids until it just wasn't part of my life anymore. Whether it was hitting them, or screaming at them. I couldn't have learned to love myself without my Higher Power, the people who loved me despite all my unattractive personality traits, and the willingness to push forward even when I didn't think I had anymore push in me. Today I have almost 8 years of sobriety, and I am not the person who walked into the rooms of AA almost 9 years ago. I took the suggestions, did the steps, always had a service position, and prayed to a HP I didn't even believe in to give me the willingness to not take a drink, and the promises have come true for me. I still have those annoying little voices that peep their ugly little heads out to try and tell me I'm worthless, but I recoil from those like I do from alcohol, and if they get to consistent I work even harder to get out of myself by working with others. I am in love with the program of Alcoholics Anonymous today, and I am truly grateful for the spiritual life it has given me. I hope this helps you, and thanks for the topic. Keep Coming Back.


Member: Rarely
Location: Canada
Remote Name: 142.161.191.3
Date: 16 Nov 2003
Time: 03:29 PM -0500

Comments

Rarely here alcoholic. Made direct amends to myself????? Sounds to me like some body wants to re-write the steps. Lets start with step one, " We admitted we were just a little bit alcoholic - that our lives had become uncomfortable at times." Get my point? The way the steps are layed out is a way to recovery. Its worked for millions of alcoholics, and its worked for me. I can't risk the chance of trying an easyer softer way. If that counselor of yours thinks he has a program of recovery better than A.A. He should get it down in print, If he thinks A.A. needs another step in in its program of recovery then get in touch with G.S.O. A.A. is always open to any suggestion that can help a alcoholic in his or her recovery. The bottom line is.....if you think treating your self to a new car. maybe a new house, new boy friend, new job, new home town will help you in your recovery go for it. we all tryed that already and it never worked but you go ahead prove us all wrong


Member: Craig L (Dogmanor@yahoo.com)
Location: Aloha, Oregon
Remote Name: 12.224.94.37
Date: 16 Nov 2003
Time: 06:20 PM -0500

Comments

When I was a little boy, I was always afraid. In my home there was no sympathy for weakness and fear. I believed I could only rely on me. I had an awful hole in me. Alcohol and drugs seemed to alleviate the feelings of emptiness and fear. Then alcohol turned on me and made me more fearful than I could stand, which only made me drink more. In AA I learned to clear away most of what I held onto in fear, I learned to forgive others. I learned to take that fearful little boy in me and give him the love he deserves as a child of God.


Member: peter s
Location: Dorset uk
Remote Name: 81.79.53.56
Date: 16 Nov 2003
Time: 06:20 PM -0500

Comments

I spent 7 steps trying to get rid of selfishness,then come step 8 i put myself right on top of the list? I think not. This program is entierly about putting other ahead of ourselves. The chapter "working with others" says something about making it plain to the new man that he puts other people ahead of himself. I reckon the councellor was misguided.


Member: AZbill
Location: azbill1172@cox.net
Remote Name: 68.0.184.118
Date: 16 Nov 2003
Time: 09:50 PM -0500

Comments

Hi. Bill here. Alcoholic from Arizona. Make amends to me? No way. What a cop out. This whole thing is about us getting out of self. It is about setting right the harms we have caused others. I did the crime now I have to pull the time. We are hard on ourselves and easy on others. It does talk about "impressive heroics" in Step 9 and how to approach the tough amends. Rewards?? You want Rewards?? You got em. The promises (page 83 and 84). Sanity will have returned (Step 10) and the biggest one of all. Having the spiritual awakening as a result promised in Step 12. I didn't get out of self in the early steps to jump right back into self in the later steps. I had to take responsibility for my actions. Thanks for being a part of my sobriety today. Love ya Bill


Member: cathy d.
Location: Ann Arbor MI
Remote Name: 68.40.199.204
Date: 16 Nov 2003
Time: 10:37 PM -0500

Comments

hi. I'm still alcoholic. For me taking the first step, joining and staying with the program for years has been an important amend to myself, yes it has been good for other people, but I have been the big winner. When we are helpful to others we help ouserves, when we help ourselves we are helpful to others too. Sort of a paradox. Thanks for reading, and thank G. for another sober day. Wishing YOU the best.


Member: Dietrich M
Location: Kabul, Afghanistan for now!
Remote Name: 217.21.147.133
Date: 17 Nov 2003
Time: 02:33 AM -0500

Comments

hello all, "making amends to myself" I have found that when we make amends, we are already making amends to ourselves, for thats what an amend is, we are mending us, an appology is what you give to someone, an amend is what you give to yourself. I found that when I first got into this program, I had a very difficult time appologizing to those I had wronged, and thats when my sponsor told me the differances, some amends were easier than others true, however once I learned that it was all for me to clean the garbage of my past off my side walk, then it started to get easier. Now today, I make the appropriate appologies when I have to, and at night when I go to bed, if something is bothering me, it usually means that I have wronged myself and that there is an amend that I need to make for me. They say that this isn't a selfish program, I beleive that some of it has to be. in order for us to learn to be honest with ourselves, and those we meet in life. Thanks for this excellant topic, w/ love from accross the big pond, your friend in sobriety, DM!


Member: Paris Troy
Location: New York
Remote Name: 172.149.251.157
Date: 17 Nov 2003
Time: 04:33 AM -0500

Comments

How can you make amends to yourself when you are already that selfish with greed in drinking too much alcohol? I mean I think alcoholism is all about greed and in this way we become mean and sadistic to put ourselves first most situations. And when acquired these habits it becomes sort of a lifetime map of our lives. Even when you are sober you're still an a-hole in a lot of ways that are acceptable and approved within the "cliques" of your peers like AAs for one. And you don't know any better because the world functions in those ways. This is a world of Hypocrisy and lies and when you try to get out of that system you goofy and an object of ridicule just like those people that society worship: Jesus christ, Socrates Copernicus, etc. But most people are unawares of their behavior and thinking in the first place because that is how to be normal. For the most part people just like to make it simple that were made for children in the lower grades to feel good about themselves and hide from this simplicity but if you scratch underneath that superficiality you will see how most function in the System of Hypocrisy and denial in their violence and destruction towards their preys of society and the world. That's why war and oppression always appeals to the strong and the righteous in this world in the name of morality and happiness. But simple people could not fathom such because they only know what others say that they should know. When one gets away from this system of oppression and become himself the object of predation and ridicule then one begins to make amends to oneself. But see only a few good people could even begin to think how this is so.


Member: Mike H
Location: Jackson Michigan
Remote Name: 68.76.52.194
Date: 17 Nov 2003
Time: 07:42 AM -0500

Comments

I believe making amends to myself was to stop beating myself up for the things I had done. To do this I had to get out of myself and help others. This made me feel good about myself. As we work through the steps more is revealed so it is constant change and renewal that makes us better people. "out with the old, in with the new" or "out with the bad, in with the good".


Member: anil gupta
Location: Mt Vernon,IL
Remote Name: 172.157.37.137
Date: 17 Nov 2003
Time: 09:34 AM -0500

Comments

I am an alcoholic and an addict making amends to myself took me a long time and it was not easy either while i was drinking i had these god like complex that I was perfact but after attending these 12 steps I learnt how terrible it was just to think the way i was thinking and doing i hope with all my time in recovery i would contnue to make amends to myself and improve myself thanks to aa and alanon.


Member: Landru
Location: SF Bay Area
Remote Name: 63.205.66.221
Date: 17 Nov 2003
Time: 10:20 AM -0500

Comments

Hi, I'm Landru, an alcoholic. When I did my fourth step, most of my issues were fear oriented and self oriented. I was so full of self loathing that some "amends to myself" were totally necesary - mainly being able to forgive myself for past behaviors. Everyone's program is different. I will do the fourth step again, but the wreckage has to be cleared sometimes. Some of us need to keep comming back more than others. I know I need a meeting every day. I'm glad for those that don't, but I can't do with out them. My program is my own.


Member: Joe P
Location: Chicago
Remote Name: 166.90.68.218
Date: 17 Nov 2003
Time: 10:37 AM -0500

Comments

My name is Joe, and I am an alcoholic. This is an interesting discussion. When my sponsor explained Step 8 to me, he gave it to me the way he had been given it. His first sponsor had scoffed at the idea of putting God and self on the eighth step list. Then his sponsor moved out of town, and his second sponsor had him put God and himself on the list. So my sponsor had me put God and myself on my Eighth Step list, but he also managed to pass down his ambivalence to me! Had a I harmed myself? I suppose I had, really - how could I not have harmed myself the way I was drinking. Had I harmed God? I don't know - deep philosophical question that I have put off delving into too deeply. But when I got to Step 9, there were no direct amends needed to God or myself. I had already stopped drinking, made a decision to go on with the AA program (Step 3), and admitted to God and myself and another human being the exact nature of my wrongs (Step5). As far as my sponsor and I were concerned, those direct amends had already been done. So my focus in Step Nine is cleaning up the wreckage with the other people on the list, not being concerned with myself.


Member: Joe B.
Location: Charleston,W.V.
Remote Name: 64.12.96.233
Date: 17 Nov 2003
Time: 11:30 AM -0500

Comments

Hi Gang, I believe it says put yourself at the top of the list. Then follow the instructions. The Little Red Book might help.Cheers.


Member: aaron
Location: Boonies
Remote Name: 169.203.87.100
Date: 17 Nov 2003
Time: 01:30 PM -0500

Comments

hello everyone I like this topic , Its hard to go back and relive every waking Incomprehensible thing we alcoholics have done when were living in the past in our heads day to day, habitual habit of living In the present will help you If you relize you can start right now, plan the rest of the second, minute , and hour of today to think about all the good things In your life today leave tommorow to god, plan for a bright future now that you have one and get back here , one foot In the past the other In the future and bathroom all over today and thats how It works folks. hosie_926@hotmail.com


Member: Kim D
Location: Bridgewater
Remote Name: 209.113.227.200
Date: 17 Nov 2003
Time: 02:04 PM -0500

Comments

Hi. Kim here, alcoholic. I have never heard making an amends to yourself in any of the Big Book meetings I've attended. However, isn't the act of staying sober on a daily basis after being a drunk most of my life all the amends I need to give myself? By staying sober ODAAT, many other blessings have presented themselves. The greatest amends I've given myself: daily sobriety.


Member: Mike C.
Location: San Francisco, CA
Remote Name: 198.81.26.170
Date: 17 Nov 2003
Time: 02:43 PM -0500

Comments

I'd just like to say that I'm happy to be with all you alkies in AA and grateful to be alive. My sobriety is getting better through working the steps and going to meetings. I'm doing things now I never imagined I'd do just a few years ago. Peace and joy to all.


Member: ljs
Location: usa
Remote Name: 216.138.5.59
Date: 17 Nov 2003
Time: 04:56 PM -0500

Comments

When I stopped drinking and follow the steps, amends took place. I have to be good to myself and take care of me. I haven't really made amends to myself. As I follow the program, I naturally progress and feel better. Its ok to forgive yourself..let the past be the past but stay away from the pity pot.


Member: KJC
Location: Grove City , OH
Remote Name: 65.60.245.215
Date: 17 Nov 2003
Time: 10:12 PM -0500

Comments

Hey all, I really needed to read about this topic. Lately I have been doing a real poor job of living my amends. Which for me is not just staying sober but taking responsibility for the things that are in my life. Like my family, finaces, job and my health. For me that is the amends to myself. It is easy to let up and start to rest on my laurels. I have been sober a long time and I forget how important it is not to be vigilant with my relationship to my higherpower. That qoute about it is a selfish program never made much sense to me. The book tells me selfishness is my problem. I guess the trick is to take my medicine daily (Pray, go to work, feed the kids, spend time with my family, do somthing nice for somone else etc...) Be responsible and accountable. I know what the problem is, it's me. I do a crapy job of running the show my self and I know that but its still easy to forget and take over. making amends to myself is living life a day at a time. Yes, we formaly make a list and wrtite amends, go over it with our sponsor and then get out their and become accountable for our actions. That's what it's about. Thanks so much for all your comments. They have helped me to see how I still need the Big G more than ever. Love ya all, KJC


Member: William Sp8
Location: Sitka Alaska
Remote Name: 24.237.188.251
Date: 18 Nov 2003
Time: 10:22 AM -0500

Comments

Making amends to myself is one of the hardest parts of working my program. My sponser commented to me once that it is pretty self centered to not be able to forgive myself when my higher power already has. It is hard for me to let go of the guilt of the things I did when I was useing and the longer I stay sober the more memories there are to contend with.Through working the steps and developing a stronger faith in my H.P. I am able to deal with things and not get so over whelmed that I have to get drunk.


Member: pete
Location: AZ
Remote Name: 198.81.26.170
Date: 18 Nov 2003
Time: 11:08 AM -0500

Comments

Pete,alcoholic Rarely from Canada you hit the nail right on the head. We need stop trying to reinvent the fellowship and program of "AA" to fit our own needs. READ THE BIG BOOK. It's all within the first 164 pages. Yours in love and service.


Member: Lyle S.
Location: Cleveland
Remote Name: 65.43.149.78
Date: 18 Nov 2003
Time: 01:32 PM -0500

Comments

Joe P. from New York hit the nail on the head. The first 7 steps are all about coming to grips with who and what we are, what we have done. Step 5, we admitted to God, OURSELVES, and another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. By asking God (as we understand him) to remove our defects of character and our shortcoming, we are making amends to our selves. As a matter of fact, the whole program, including making amends to others is how we make amends to our selves. Keep Coming Back!


Member: Tim V
Location: Poconos
Remote Name: 64.21.98.130
Date: 18 Nov 2003
Time: 02:33 PM -0500

Comments

Thanks for helping me stay sober today. Blessings, Tim


Member: Betsy
Location: Washington
Remote Name: 12.208.172.13
Date: 18 Nov 2003
Time: 06:17 PM -0500

Comments

Wow, Joe P and Lyle could be peeking into my brain... I also feel strongly that the beginnings of amends to myself began with Step 3 and continued throughout all of the steps, including the "maintenance" steps, 10, 11 and 12. Nice to have found this group! Betsy


Member: MikeT
Location: CT.
Remote Name: 24.151.55.87
Date: 18 Nov 2003
Time: 10:24 PM -0500

Comments

Thanks for the topic. I think you need to look at what making amends means. For me, it isnt apologizing for the things I did, its changing the way I think or speak or act and not doing those things again. Making amends to myself isnt about forgiving myself, its about working the steps, praying and listening, and changing from that person I was into the person I was meant to be. Stay Low, Mike


Member: Gage
Location: swamp
Remote Name: 64.12.96.233
Date: 19 Nov 2003
Time: 12:10 AM -0500

Comments

I'm Gage, and I'm an alcoholic. I can't see much advantage in putting myself at the top of my Step 8 list. If I hadn't been so anxious to put myself ahead of everyone else, my Step 8 list might not be so long.


Member: PappyPaw
Location: Sourt Central Mi
Remote Name: 66.231.35.128
Date: 19 Nov 2003
Time: 08:48 AM -0500

Comments

Hi Gang I am pappyPaw and I am a grateful sober Recovering Alcoholic. I would like to take my hat off to Rarely in Canada. Tis true and tried everything you say. AA is not for everyone but great for those whow want it. I am going to go with my friend rarely and build myself another day of soberiety. Thanks for sharing with me and have a nice day. PappyPaw


Member: Kim
Location: KC
Remote Name: 12.167.75.11
Date: 19 Nov 2003
Time: 02:23 PM -0500

Comments

I have not been able to find the instructions in the Big Book for making amends to myself. However, I have discovered that the more I throw myself into working with others, the less concerned I am with myself.


Member: Miles
Location: CNY
Remote Name: 24.58.250.12
Date: 19 Nov 2003
Time: 07:35 PM -0500

Comments

Hi. What I think about making amends to yourself is that you are trying to break some bad habits to become a better person. A bicycle with a wobbly wheel has the bad habit of wobbling. Making changes to the wheel can either make it worse or better. I know it's a lot easier to make something worse than it is to fix it. If I realize I care about becoming better, it will be worth the effort to make changes. Along the way, new problems will emerge, and I will never be perfect. As long as I keep my mind open to my faults, I will at least be able to try to make amends. Some habits are harder to break than others. Try to stay positive.


Member: Ardis ;)
Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast
Remote Name: 24.161.241.255
Date: 19 Nov 2003
Time: 11:46 PM -0500

Comments

Put my own name on my amend list? You must be kidding. Tell me where it says that in the first 164 pages and forwewords in the Big Book, please? ======================================= Forgiveness began when I forgave others, made honest amends, put the money where my mouth was, and straightened my behavior out, a babystep at a time. Once I started to do those respectable things, I became respectable. Do the actions and the results will follow. ======= It's a Program of Action and it's a Program of cleaning OUR behavior up and KEEPING our side of the street clean. We have done wrong to others, we need to take full responsibility for those past actions, otherwise no peace will be had is my experience. Don't water our AA Program down and repeat hearsay. There is no putting our name first on any amend list, it's about getting out of self, thinking less of me-me-me-me-me, the center of the universe.


Member: Amanda H
Location: NW Montana
Remote Name: 64.91.59.182
Date: 19 Nov 2003
Time: 11:58 PM -0500

Comments

Hi! My name is Amanda and I am also a grateful recovering alcoholic. I have been reading all of the posts and I am a bit amused to think that just because a topic is not in the Big Book, it is questioned by some of you. Discussion and tips on any topic that are related to working the steps are almost always helpful. I actually think it is a great topic. Please be aware I believe that there is a huge distinction between being selfish and making amends to yourself. The work we do outside of our self must begin first and foremost from within our hearts and heads. Making amends to myself begins for me by treating my own body with the respect I was lacking for my well-being when I was drinking. How do can I work through making amends to others if I cannot forgive myself, or care enough about myself to be my own kind caregiver? Self-nurturing is an essential part of healing any disease, and especially so, when dealing with alcoholism. Self-nurturing, as long as one does not descend into self-indulgence, should not be considered selfish, it should be praised for its wisdom. When we are rested and when we take the time to care for our bodies we have the emotional fortitude to move forward in our program in a healthy way. Self-care is how we achieve the strength to look forward to each sober day with hope.


Member: Yvonne
Location: Scotland
Remote Name: 195.93.34.12
Date: 20 Nov 2003
Time: 01:26 AM -0500

Comments

I think that if an amend is to be any good it has to be more than words. Anyone can say 'I'm sorry' but it has to be genuinely meant and from the heart to bring about change. Thats my experience anyway. I'm confused about the difference between amends and self forgiveness. I wouldn't put myself at the top of an amends list but have recognised that if I don't forgive myself, then I find myself judging others by the same harsh standards that I judge myself and find that anything other than a heartfelt amends leaves me feeling resentful. It's not relevant in clear cut amends where I know that I have genuinely wronged an innocent party...but rather those amends where you are clearing up your side of the street but they may have equally as much on their side of the street. You know...Yes I was wrong but if they hadn't have done this. I've found a lot of family amends fall into that category. Actually I'm pretty confused about the whole thing but just have this feeling that self forgiveness opens the path to genuinely forgiving others. And a lot of my amends seem to involve being able to forgive their part (even if they don't own it) as well as apologising for my part so that I can finally let go.


Member: Italiangirl
Location: Canada
Remote Name: 24.69.255.203
Date: 20 Nov 2003
Time: 02:15 AM -0500

Comments

Hi,Im an alcoholic my name is Savay. I tuly keep my program of recovery simple only because I can go to places in my head that will be out to kill me.It's my recovery not for anyone elese to influence their opinion on to me. I take the steps and change occurs sometimes I want to move quickly up the steps latter but I've chosen to understand things from a more different perspective and thats what changes when you stick around join in and have fun.I BELIEVE somewhere in the traditions it says don't take yourself so damn seriously. So I don't I do service and I try to be of service to my fellows daily. Lifes great and I won't change it for the world Love ya all you gave me a sober happy free I thank you tons


Member: maryw
Location: kansas
Remote Name: 68.103.52.156
Date: 20 Nov 2003
Time: 02:44 AM -0500

Comments

sounds like a real meeting in here! each person works their own program and it works for each of them. no ones 100% right and no one is 100% wrong it is all perception. what keeps me sober today might get the rest of you rip roaring drunk, and vise versa. making amends to my self. you know what? the person i wronged the most was myself. my children ties with it almost (but amends to them isn't the topic). the worse i sank in my alcoholism, the more i did bad things to myself. why eat a nutricious meal? a stale bag of fritos will do... i could go into a bodacious drunkalog here... and give y'all my inventory...but then it would run way over 300 words... by the time i hit my last bottom... take my word, i wronged myself pretty bad... now to the amends. my primary amend to myself is to stay sober for today! then to do what it takes to stay healthy, and to forgive myself. yes i said forgive myself... my acoholism was / is suicide on the installment plan. suicide is the ultimate in self hatred. it took me several years of sobriety to have and use a mirror in my own home. i couldn't look myself in the eye. i had to learn what love really was and to love myself again. cuz i sure didn't know anything about real love when i was drinking! well, i did have one true love ... booze. i did anything to have it. i need it. so, yes, make amends to your self. steps six and seven are character defects and their removal.. eight and nine are setting things straight with yourself and others. like i said in the beginning... this is how my program worked for me... take what you need and leave the rest. hugs, maryw y0mary@hotmail.com


Member: Charlie H
Location: Southern louisiana
Remote Name: 209.62.194.202
Date: 20 Nov 2003
Time: 03:40 AM -0500

Comments

Thanks for your comments MaryW. My sobriety date is 1/2/84, and I say that not to brag but just to remind myself I got here one day at a time! I have lots of mental ups and downs. I'm still a very selfish person, sometimes more so than others. I don't get to nearly enough meetings, all to far away or some other excuse. I need help everyday from my HP to stay sober. I'm a weak man with lots of hangups and I manage to stay sober by just not taking that first drink. The Big Book & The Little Red Book are the anchors that hold me fast and keep me sober. I need all the help I can get. Notice how often the I word is used in this post? Help is needed right now. Damn!


Member: Adam H.
Location: New York, NY
Remote Name: 64.232.156.194
Date: 20 Nov 2003
Time: 10:14 AM -0500

Comments

Adam, alcoholic. Yeah, I'm in the same boat as Ardis and Gage. I made a whole lifestyle out of putting myself ahead of everybody else before AA and consequently, I stepped on a lot of people that I cared about. Thus, it doesn't seem appropriate to put myself first on my amends list...or on the list at all. Don't get me wrong--I think putting one's self on the list is a nice sentiment, but it's been my experience that in doing the esteemable acts that come with making amends to the people I harmed, I gain the kind of self-esteem that helps me make peace with my past and, accordingly, with myself. In other words, the reward for being honest with others is that I get to be an honest person (which I was not before AA) and the reward I get for putting the needs of others ahead of my own is that I get to be a generous person (which I was not before AA). Thanks for letting me share. Grateful to be sober.


Member: Carolyn
Location: Colorado
Remote Name: 12.45.124.118
Date: 20 Nov 2003
Time: 11:58 AM -0500

Comments

Hello, Carolyn alcholic here. I don't remember reading in the BB that I couldn't put myself on my amends list, via step 8. To me it is a living amends. Selfish? I was told this was a selfish program. For me, I need to say out loud that I am worthy of an amends and only because God wants me to love myself enough to stop abusing myself. I am trying to get out of martyrdom and into real life. The first time I ever heard of making amends to myself, someone who just finished a 5 year dry drunk shared that at a meeting and he was finally able to forgive himself and thought about amends to himself. I cried. I thought, "I am not worth it." That was not so long ago. Thanks for letting me share.


Member: Todd
Location: OK
Remote Name: 65.77.117.10
Date: 20 Nov 2003
Time: 12:51 PM -0500

Comments

Hi, I'm Todd...a grateful, recovering alcoholic. I'm new to this forum, but not to AA...although I'm still relatively new. I have 2 years of "sobriety"...which could be measured in varying degrees of sanity, of course. Without a meeting at least every few days (if not every day), I'm a train wreck waiting to happen. I can start my day submitting to God all my willfulness, and I can even end it thankfully...but without a place where I can gather with fellow recovering alkies...I'm a mess. Thanks for this forum.


Member: Les
Location: San Diego
Remote Name: 205.188.209.140
Date: 20 Nov 2003
Time: 08:07 PM -0500

Comments

Everything I did while drinking was for the benefit of myself, regardless of what effect it had on others. The word amend is not the singular form of the word amends. They are two different words.


Member: Rarely
Location: Canada
Remote Name: 206.45.165.48
Date: 20 Nov 2003
Time: 10:01 PM -0500

Comments

Forgive myself eh, Alcoholism is an illness and we suffer all kinds of side effects, It makes me wonder if those who have a mental break down and are on the road back to recovery think about forgiving themself, and one of their priorities would be to put themselves ahead of all their loved ones when it comes to setting things right. Oh maybe some may think our illness is self inflicted, Well it wasn't for me. I was told I was going to lose my wife and 5 children, told I would lose my job, I could see very clearly when I lost the house and smashed the car, I was aware that my friends didnt invite me to the parties, Anyone that thinks I wanted these things to happen and I could stop it any time I wanted... think again Forgive myself?? and now reward myself for what A.A. and my highter power done for me what I couldn't do myself. I might as well turn myself into the mental hospital. No I didn't want these things to happen to me and my loved ones. Yet they were so quick to forgive me. and I think they saw the change in me, I wasn't that same old selfish s.o.b. putting my name on the top of the list.


Member: Amanda H
Location: NW Montana
Remote Name: 64.91.59.182
Date: 20 Nov 2003
Time: 10:34 PM -0500

Comments

The person who started the topic didn't suggest putting ourself first, he simply asked to address the topic of including ourselves in the amends. I agree amends is plural and I think if we do not include being kind to our own body and to our own souls how do we start doing the right thing for others??? I also liked the person who stated that we have to live our amends. Talk is a cheap and easy way to unload guilt. I have heard it said you cannot talk your way out of something you behaved yourself into...So how do you begin behaving your amends or walking your talk if you are not forgiving and kind to yourself also?????? Being kind to yourself is not selfish it is necessary for a healthy recovery.


Member: Janet O.
Location: Oregon
Remote Name: 65.122.151.155
Date: 20 Nov 2003
Time: 10:57 PM -0500

Comments

Hi, I'm Janet and I am an alcoholic. This is my first time at this site, but probably not my last. Interesting topic, I was thinkink about this very thing today...I have been in the program for many years and have done many forth and fifth steps. I usuallly use my "grudge list" as an outline for my 8th and 9th steps. The 8th reminds me that all I need is to be willing to make amends. The 9th is the action step, the actual aplogizing for the wrongs I had done. I eventually got to a point though that I had to do a forth step on myself because of some of the self hatred. As I had done in the past, I used a format from the Big Book and listed to the best of my ability the things I resented about myself. They were by the way about the way I had treated others. I then made amends using my grudge list. I didn't look into a mirror and say sorry, but I started thinking differently about me. I was a drunk, now I am a sober alcoholic. Its okay to love yourself and to be kind to yourself because if you aren't, then everything you do has an ulterior motive, for instance doing something nice for someone because maybe they will like you. I can do nice things because I feel okay about myself, and that 4th 5th 8th and 9th step I did plays a big part. To end with a fun little quote: a resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die!!


Member: Buz Ottem
Location: North Oregon Coast
Remote Name: 65.127.11.67
Date: 20 Nov 2003
Time: 11:14 PM -0500

Comments

Hello, I'm Buz an alcoholic There are as many ways to work this program as there are people in it - to each his/her own. If my memory hasn't failed me there are 59 'musts' in the big book, after that it's all yours. Making amends to yourself falls directly under - how you work YOUR program. (PERIOD) For me, I used to carry a very big stick and beat myself with it regularly. I decided/found out that while taking one's inventory is a must, carrying a big stick was not a must. Being able to forgive yourself and make those amends to yourself can be vital.


Member: Les
Location: San Diego
Remote Name: 198.81.26.170
Date: 21 Nov 2003
Time: 12:28 AM -0500

Comments

Self esteem comes from doing estimable things. One of the most estimable things an alcoholic can do is set right the wrongs committed. As we forgive others we find that there is nothing left in ourselves to forgive. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."


Member: Jennifer Star
Location: Near Portland, Oregon
Remote Name: 198.81.26.170
Date: 21 Nov 2003
Time: 02:40 AM -0500

Comments

Making Amends for myself when I realized I couldn't change everything wrong I did, and "Having the courage to change the things I can" is for me where I began. I fell into the drinking pot when I was 18 and quit college even though I was making A's and B's. When I met my husband, for example, I was drunk off my bottom - I made a lot of bad choices being drunk. I am an alcoholic, I am taking each day as I can, and drinking has ruined my health. Saturday I get to have surgery to try to correct some of the dammage, my kidneys don't work the way they should, and this is after being sober since 6-14-2001. Anyway, I made ammends to my family as well as myself when I returned to college in the spring, and my hope is when I am done I can bring hope to others. I am told the best counselors have been there!


Member: chuckm
Location: Alberta
Remote Name: 209.197.148.7
Date: 21 Nov 2003
Time: 03:52 AM -0500

Comments

If I follow the program in the Big Book the first seven and half steps are for fixing me.On pages 66 & 67 in the middle of the 4th step and page 552 it shows me how to "cease to resent". cease to resent is the second meaning of the word "to forgive". To forgive others is for my benefit. The old resentments are what is causing my misery today. In step 8 the willingness to make amends is for my benefit. I have now finished with selfishness and now am outword looking in step 9. It is for their benefit I make ammends. (my benefit from doing the step is because I am doing God's will). Incidently the word ammends is the plural of an old French word meaning compensation, restitution and reparation.(for the harm I have done) The word amend means change and the plural is ammendments.It is not what step 9 is about


Member: kelly
Location: los angeles, ca
Remote Name: 216.165.237.189
Date: 21 Nov 2003
Time: 04:26 AM -0500

Comments

hi i'm kelly and i am an alcoholic. i think making amends to myself is a necessary step. i'm working on my 8th step. i hope that i can come to the point of forgiving myself though for the things i've done. well thank you for letting me share


Member: Joe P
Location: Chicago
Remote Name: 209.86.96.34
Date: 21 Nov 2003
Time: 07:11 AM -0500

Comments

Joe, alcoholic. I don’t usually like to post twice to the meetings here, but this is an interesting discussion. There was mention of an “amends list” and finding directions in the Big Book that got me thinking and reading. I did not do an amends list in Step 8, it was a harms list in the first part of Step 8 – “Made a list of all persons we had harmed…” I note the word ‘all’ as inclusive. Not much written about making that list in the BB, because we are referred back to our Fourth Step inventory – “Let's look at Steps Eight and Nine. We have a list of all persons we have harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We made it when we took inventory. We subjected ourselves to a drastic self-appraisal.” (BB p.76). So I go back to the discussion in the BB of Step 4 and after listing resentments find this – “When we were finished we considered it carefully. The first thing apparent was that this world and its people were often quite wrong. To conclude that others were wrong was as far as most of us ever got. The usual outcome was that people continued to wrong us and we stayed sore. Sometimes it was remorse and then we were sore at ourselves.” (BB, pp.66-67) Sometimes …we were sore at ourselves. So, it seems to me, our 4th Step may point to resentments or even harms towards ourselves. Thus, if we take our Step 8 list from our Step 4 inventory, (following directions as laid out in the BB), we could wind up with our own names on the Eighth Step list. I don’t see directions in the BB about what order those name should appear. Thus, my name happens to be towards the top of my Eighth Step list because it got me to writing, NOT because it was more important than harms done to others. But as I stated before, NO amends to myself were necessary, because previous steps had already taken care of that. For me, second half of Step 8 and all of Step 9 is about amends to others. Oh, and I have a tendency to beat myself up, too, but I find the help for that n Steps 6 & 7.


Member: matthew
Location: texas
Remote Name: 208.191.87.154
Date: 21 Nov 2003
Time: 10:21 AM -0500

Comments

hello, matthew here...one of the first people my sponsor told me to list on my 4th step was myself...and when i arrived at the 8th step i was the first person on the list to make amends to...what i have come to understand about amends to yourself is the continued amends to others and the continued growth in aa through the steps...what i have discovered is the longer i have stayed sober in aa the more i have become willing to take care of myself emotionally, physically, mentally, and spiritually...i think it has become more and more important to treat myself and others with respect...and it works


Member: Susan A.
Location: Vernon, Connecticut
Remote Name: 158.171.31.12
Date: 21 Nov 2003
Time: 12:41 PM -0500

Comments

Hi All, I'm Susan and I'm an Alcoholic. Being told by a counselor 'the first person to make amends to is yourself' would give me a hard time, too, as though I was supposed to put my needs/comforts/etc before others. Bass-ackwards for this girl. You know that saying about "you can act your way into right thinking, but you can't think your way into right acting"? I agree the 'compensation, restitution and reparation' to myself are done by the Actions of the steps up to this one, and by the Actions of making restitution (amends) to others for the harms done. If I'm not doing wrongs anymore, and do my best to fix the wrongs of the past, I'm well on my way to becoming the person God wants me to be (I get to be happy, rid of guilt & fear, useful, compasionate, etc). If I start thinking like I'm going to take care of me, and it's some false notion of what's best for me, or at others' expense, then I'm in the wrong.


Member: Rarely
Location: Canada
Remote Name: 142.161.185.8
Date: 21 Nov 2003
Time: 05:49 PM -0500

Comments

The last paragraph in the 12x12 on step seven... The Seventh Step is where we make the change in our attitude which permits us,with humility as our guide to move out of ourselves toward others and toward God.... How in Gods name can I turn around and start he eighth step by putting my name on the list when I just moved out of myself in step seven?


Member: TrixieBelle
Location: San Jose, CA
Remote Name: 192.18.43.10
Date: 21 Nov 2003
Time: 08:02 PM -0500

Comments

"Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny." p. 164 This is my favorite favorite passage. To trudge my Road of *Happy* Destiny I had to dump a lot of shit. I made an amends to myself for getting so drunk I was unable to fend off a rapist. This helped me clear up some past shi* I just couldn't deal with. If this makes me a selfish bastard so what. It's a selfish program. I didn't get sober for *you*, or my dad or my Mom or my dog. I did it for me. I'm still sober today. Peace.


Member: Yvonne
Location: Scotland
Remote Name: 195.93.34.12
Date: 22 Nov 2003
Time: 02:18 AM -0500

Comments

Thank you for that very good explanation Joe. It's cleared up a lot of my confusion.


Member: kimj
Location: lisbon falls me
Remote Name: 66.63.67.209
Date: 22 Nov 2003
Time: 04:35 PM -0500

Comments

hi, kim alcoholic. wow what a topic, my HP knows wht is best for me. First time on this sight. Have not been to meetings for a long long time and i really nneded to hear the steps. I used to be a huge meeting fan then life got hold of me wihtout alcohol now i have hit a huge life problem and alcohol remains an answer in this stubborn mind. It is insidious. Thanks for keepin gi t simple. I am the center of my problem and have ot honor my self without putting myself in the center. That position is reserved for HP.