Member: Angela S.
Location: Hot Springs, AR
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 11:46:41 AM
Good morning,
I guess I'm the first one here...
How about this topic:
Page 53 of The Big Book says "When we became alcoholics, crushed by a self-imposed crisis we could not postpone or evade, we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is, or He isn't. What was our choice to be?" Let's talk about our struggle (if any) with coming to an understanding of a Higher Power.
I was raised in the church and had no problem with the CONCEPT of God. Where I ran into trouble was believing that God cared about what happened to me. After all, I had so royally screwed up the life He had given me, how could He possibly think I was worth His time?
After working through the steps, I came to the understanding that THAT idea was the result of my own arrogance. By denying that God could love me, I was putting myself in the place of God and presuming to know what He knew (if that makes any sense).
At any rate, I was finally convinced that God loves me no matter what, and that made it pretty easy to trust Him with my life.
Have a wonderful week!
Angela
Member: Randy D.
Location: Boston, MA
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 12:01:36 PM
I had a fair amount of religious education (Baptish grade school, Catholic high school) and had proclaimed myself an agnostic before I came to AA. My biggest problem was having faith. I was told that I needed a neck:) because my head was not connected to my heart.
I had no problem with the idea that there is a Higher Power and had actually spent some time trying to figure out my conception of what It meant to me.
I identified with Angela. I questioned why God should care about me. And what can God do to fix what was physically wrong with me. I did not know at that time that my disease was spiritual, mental, and physical and the root of them all lies in my spiritual bankruptcy.
I heard something that helped me a lot with faith. "Faith implies knowledge." Hence it is not surprising that I have no faith because I have never tried solving problems with God's help. Fortunately, the BB says that I only need to "want to believe". I have been making decisions and actions as though I believe -- I listen to my sponsor even when I don't want to :) and I am working the steps. I feel my faith germenting and I actually feel peaceful some time.
Member: Dan Smith
Location: Back in Arizona
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 12:37:56 PM
Hello everyone, When I first came to AA, I tried to do it on my own, and was a miserable dry drunk. I saw people who were happy, people who actually cared about others, and their problems. Then I asked this gentleman to take me through the BB. He told me that he did what him and his friends called a BB workshop. We went through, and during that experience, we came to a part that we had to incorporate into the 12 steps. This is "to me" the essence of the program. It is called the Spiritual Experience, Pgs 569-570 in the BB. Since then and my third step I have been sober. That was six years ago. I am still working the program to the best of my ability, on a daily basis. This website and you kindly, God oriented people help alot. God is or he isn't, my sponsor told me to stop being wishy, washy and make a decision, Step 2 I did and it has worked so far. Thanks for the topic and allowing me to share in your, and my own spiritual path. God Bless us one and all.
Member: John S
Location: Texas
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 1:55:46 PM
Hi, I'm John ,alcoholic. I came to this program full of guilt, shame, fear and alot of anger and self hatred. With all that going on inside me it was impossible to believe that God cared for me. it took me a while to realize that He loves us all because of the fact of being given the gift of sobriety. I have not questioned His love since. I used to beat myself up alot for a poor performance because I was operating under the bondage of having to be perfect. I no longer do that because I am a human being bound to make mistakes in life. With the help of this program and the people of this fellowship, I have been given a way of life that has allowed me to stay sober for over sixteen years. God is everything to me today and I cannot imagine my life without Him or this program. Love and peace
Member: Lee
Location: MI
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 4:06:02 PM
Hello all - LeeEllen here and a recovering alcoholic. Thank you Angela for the topic.
I was brought up in the Catholic Church. This isn't to say that ALL Catholic's experienced the same thing that I did, but my comprehension of the religion centered around guilt, God being a damning & judgmental Being, and that almost everything I thought or did was a sin. Needless to say, I didn't "like" God and I was afraid of Him.
The first AA meeting, I was appalled at the frequent references to God. The Big Book, the 12 and 12, the meetings --- everything seemed to center around God. How in the world was I going to do this when I didn't "like" God??
It took a good 5 years before I came to the realization that I could have my OWN concept of a Higher Power, even tho the BB talks of this---"God as WE understood Him." That was my problem -- I didn't understand Him/Her/It. But after years of sobriety and still being empty and unhappy, I finally "came to believe." I had a spiritual experience that took away all doubts, fears. Today, while I'm not as diligent as I should be in staying in contact with my Higher Power, I'm still connected. I feel Him in my life and it's made all the difference in the world. AA'ers kept telling me to "fake it til I make it" and that's what I did. It took 5 years, but finally I was WILLING to believe in a loving, caring, gentle God, who in fact DID love me.
Again Angela, thank you for the topic. I'm sure it will be helpful to newcomers to hear everyone's experience with the concept of God. And thank you all for letting me share. God Bless. Peace, Lee
Member: Steve K
Location: Swan Lake, N.Y.
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 5:42:09 PM
Hi, Steve alcoholic. Iused alcohol to take away my fears and every day proplems. This worked for along time, until I got myself into trouble. I was in denial for so many years that I thought this is a normal way life. That was until I got 2 DWI`S. I was then told to go to a recovery program and that worked, but it was`nt until AA that I became spiritual and things started happening for the better. I did`nt fear for yesterday, oworry about tommorow.
ui
Hi. Steve alcoholic. I used alcohol to hide from my fears and every day problems. I wasrealy in denial I thought this was the way I could get along in life. That lasted until I got 2 DWI`S. I went into a tc recovery program and got a lot out it. It was`nt until I started AA that I became spiritual. That realy worked for me. I did`nt worry about yesterday or fear what may come tommarow. I go to my HIGHER POWERfor my support and stay at peace and have serenity now. I have never been so at this level, and I went through Vietnam, drinking of course. BLESS ALL
Member: Dan H. Diggarelli14@hotmail.com
Location: Henderson/LV,NV
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 6:32:54 PM
Hi all, Dan, alcoholic. You are a Godsend Angela, there are no coincedences. Me and my sponser spent the past hour at a big book meeting talking about step two. I Just agreed that god is everything and I agree again and will be forever agreeing! "Arrived at this point we were squarely confronted with the question of faith. We couldn't duck the issue." I ducked the issue for many years, but no more. First there was hope, then I believed, there appeared faith. That's how it works for this alcoholic. Don't leave before the miracle happens.
Member: Dana H.
Location: California Gold Country
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 7:13:06 PM
Hi, I am Dana and I am an alcoholic. I grew up in an alcoholic home with a family that had negative experiences with organized religion, and never even really mentioned "God" or the concept of a higher power to me. And when I was in my early teens a friend of mine invited me to a Bible study group that told me that dinosaur bones were planted by the devil to instill doubts about God in people and that Barry Manilow was the anti-Christ because he wrote the song "I write the songs" and Lucifer had been the angel of music, sooo.... So, I had some trouble with other people's concepts of God. But when I came to AA they told me that I had to find my own concept, and my sponsor helped me to trace the "coincidences" in my life that led to my landing in a Recovery center and being introduced to the 12 Steps. This process of seeing how I was brought into Recovery helped reveal to me how my Higher Power, that I can call "God" without too much discomfort today, had always been there in my life, trying to help me see what I was really looking for in all those bars, with all those men, for all those years. I have been sober by the grace of my God for almost 14 years (it will be 14 on Oct. 22nd! As long as I don't find it necessary to drink between now and then). I was lucky when I got sober, because I came to believe that it was a Higher Power that I had really been searching for all along. Something that would make me feel safe and allow me to be peaceful (serene), when all I felt was fear and an increasing need to be more and more grandiose in order to instill a kind of fear in others and make me think I was safe. I was willing to believe in the possibility, and I think that kept me coming back long enough to come to believe in the Higher Power I know today. In the last month I have found myself in need of strengthening my concious contact, as I guess many of us have, and I am very grateful to have AA and the 12 Steps to help affirm and strengthen that connection at this time. Thank you all for being here.
Member: John H
Location: In, USA
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 7:28:59 PM
Hello, all! A few words or so from this alkie. I have never questioned that there is in fact a Creator, God or Force behind all the beauty in the world when we honestly oen our eyes without bias. We suggest that God's will, not mine be done.
It is quite a while since my last drink of alcohol, over 15 years.When I came into the program I followed God's will a percentage of time; when I didn't, that was when I picked up a drink and sometimes got into trouble and/or caused trouble for others.
By following the 12/12 the best I can at this point, I heed God's will with more seriousness and consistency and the results are immeasurably better, no drunking spells and more contentment with self-acceptance. It takes time for betterment; most important is to stay at least an arm's length away from that first drink. Pray and meditate each day, do the steps and respect the traditions. You will release your guilt feelings and feel God's forgiveness.
Member: RonZ
Location: Baltimore
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 8:17:54 PM
It's about 8:30 Sunday night and I've been away from meetings for about 2 years now following aproxx 3 years of sobriety. I drank last night and feel terrible can anyone give me any suggestions on how to first of all get thru tonight and how I can use the web for attending meetings ?
Member: RonZ
Location:
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 8:21:37 PM
I know this isn't the nature of your subject but I'm just trying to get some advise here. Could someone direct me to a chat site or something that I could do on the web ?
Member: bob m
Location: maine
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 9:04:12 PM
RonZ If you had been going toaa meeting for 3 years and was sober then the best thing to do is go back as soon as possible. the web is good for chating but aa is for staying sober because you have tobe a part of by being active in the meetings by doing your part.the web is not a easy softer way. the easy softer way is a ftof meeting with 0ne drunk working with another drunk. try to go back
Member: Tom
Location: LKA
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 9:09:28 PM
Where is God now ? I am struggling again. I am an alcoholic and addict and am having trouble staying sober. I have trusted God for the past 12 years , months of inpatient tx and years of sobriety only to relapse again. I am losing hope this time....
Member: Michael B.
Location: AZ
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 9:56:16 PM
Hi! My name is Michael, and I am a recovering alcoholic and addict, sober today only by the Grace of God and the Fellowship. Welcome newcomers! Thanks for all the sincere shares.
I am one of those who the Big Book describes as having once had faith and then lost it over the years. My God was and is today the God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims. He is omnipotent.
Yet, even that concept of God was not enough to make me feel that He wanted me to stay sober when I first came to AA years ago.
Today, I feel it is only through his Grace and the Fellowship that I have remained sober.
Member: Dayle
Location:
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 10:30:13 PM
To All: The old adage works for me "pray for strength in the morning & give thanks at night', and asking for guidance during the day is even better. To Rom & Tom: pray, pray, pray , submerse yourelf in face to face meetings, read , read, read, go to more meetings and pray some more. Trust in God, AA and yourself. Asking for advice shows your willingness......good luck.
Member: ronZ
Location: Baltimore
Date: 10/14/2001
Time: 10:59:13 PM
Many Thanks for the advise. Your only telling me the truth and I guess after all these years I still need to here that. through it all though I still hold onto God as my strength - thanks for making me see it tonight, when I needed to . Take care all. Ronz
Member: Gage
Location: South Louisiana
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 12:02:54 AM
Good topic, Angela. (By the way, I love Hot Springs. I've closed the bar at the Arlington more than once in my time. It's beautiful there. You're lucky!)
I was beat up and very desperate when I got here. I think I took the first step before I made it through the door to my first meeting. The second step, then, just sort of happened. I just didn't drink and kept going to meetings. Before I knew it, I was conscious of the fact that I had indeed come to believe that these people, who had the same problem as I, had tapped into a power that could stand between them and the bottle. They told me I could have the same thing if I wanted it and, I just believed them. I don't know why. Maybe I just wanted to. Step three actually required me to consciously do something. And I did it just as the book suggests, on my knees, with another person. Honestly, the reason I did it that way was because I didn't have any better ideas. There is nothing sophisticated about my concept of God. You couldn't write a book about it. Fortunately, all I'm supposed to do is attempt to grow in understanding of God, and try to discover his will for me. AA has some steps to help me do that (which is good because I wouldn't know where to begin otherwise) and I'm doing them in the order they are written. I assume they're in that order for a reason, so that's how I'm doing them. I don't have to be smart. Just honest and willing. That's what my group tells me. I don't want to screw it up by thinking too much. All I know is that it's been some time now since I felt like I had to have a drink. I keep remembering "Keep it simple." Very unlike me, but it works.
Member: Gage
Location: S.LA
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 12:23:18 AM
Sorry, folks, about the double dip. Gage, and I'm an alcoholic. Ron Z, I compare the web meetings to a sort of "e-Grapevine". There's no way though that they could be a substitute for my face to face group meeting.
Member: Mo
Location: West Coast(U.S.A.)
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 1:10:21 AM
Where is God? God is everywhere! Things get messed up when we are there alone by ourself, thinking and acting by ourself. Only nothing can help us when we do this thinking and acting while drinking! Love gets lost, Lives get screwed up! I've learned this the Hard way! Thanks for letting me share and Thamks for being here! May You find Him Now. Mo
Member: gayle v
Location: mi
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 6:30:06 AM
i haven;t been to aa meeting in 12 years and still drink and mess lives up.i go to church weekly but hate it.i hate meetings because they are depressing.i need some light at the end of the tunnel, where do i start.i have the bb somewhere,do i read?church isn't the answer.
gvs
Member: Sarah
Location: NW USA
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 7:36:10 AM
"God is everything or else God is nothing. What is our choice to be?" When I was 13 years old I decided "God" had done a poor job with my life. I decided "I" could do a far better job. When I came to AA, they told me it was a spiritual program of spiritual principles ... and a "Group Of Drunks" shared their experience, strength and hope about these spiritual principles and thus they were able to live sober. Confusing ... How could a "Group Of Drunks" teach how to live a life based on spiritual wisdom(sober, sane problem solving logic)? To me they did not look like "Wise Spiritual Teachers" ... they look like the common ordinary people I had drank with in the bars. What these common ordinary people did teach was the "Spiritual Wisdom" in common ordinary experiences of life. One experience is the common ordinary experience of a traffic light telling me ... "First things First", "Principles before Personalities", "Primary Purpose", the traffic flows if "Spritual Principles" are everything and the traffic does not flow if these "Spiritual Principles" are nothing because the intersection is a pile of garbage (traffic accident). I don't do it perfect, sometimes my life seems like a pile of garbage but ... All I know is AA for me somehow with these common ordinary people has really become a group of "Wise Spiritual Teachers" giving a "Healing Power". Thanks AA. Keep coming back.
Member: Tina D.
Location: Georgia
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 8:35:06 AM
I have trouble with the idea that God can help, because if he is so powerful and loving, why has he created me in this way in the first place? I am still working on this one, one day at a time-My idea of God is he created us, and all life, and observes. Leaving us to make the choices, and improving ourlives when we fail.
Member: Ian M.
Location: Ohio
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 10:23:33 AM
Hi! My name is Ian, and I'm a grateful recovering alcoholic. Well, for me , developing the concept of a Higher Power involved lots of sipping as opposed to big gulps. I grew up in the Bible Belt and was under the impression God was only paying attention to people who were good. (And I hadn't been good for a very long time.) It was only after work with a sponsor and lots of meetings I came to understand I was saying to God "This is a show me program-so show me!" What arrogance on my part! I came to understand later God had been there all along. God's grace was available to me at all times, I just turned my back on it. I like to think of it as an all night coffee shop which never closes. This was a big turning point for me, I was able to understand I am not alone. Have a great day. God is real. AA works.
Member: Lisa T
Location: SD
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 10:41:27 AM
I'm Lisa and I'm an alcoholic. Just the other day I emailed this to my husband as he and I were discussing an upcoming decision/change. I believed that we had to believe that God either is or He isn't. Needless to say my husband said "what do you mean?". I came to believe that I had to believe that God is or He isn't. THat He is omnipotent,controller, master, creater of everything and only He could do everything, that He will make things as they should be, He will take care of us. I'm not sure how I got to this point in my sobriety. I think through watching him work through my life in these days of sobriety. Somebody said before "stick around until the miracle happens". I can tell you that not all days of sobriety did I know what was to become of me, but my choice was to stick around because I knew where not sticking around would get me. I had not choice but to believe. If at times only by hanging on by a thread to whatever this program had to offer me for that time, EVEN IF I DIDN"T UNDERSTAND IT. Which why would I understand a new way of living.. if I've never lived that way before. Anyway, long story short sometimes I just have to give up and believe cause I don't have any other choice. I think they call that SURRENDER. It takes a MAC TRUCK hitting me most of the time... but I will wait until the truck comes tyring floundering, my own way until the truck gets here... sometimes it takes a beautiful soft hand of my maker showing me His love.. now that's harder for me to accept..but as I grow to understand His love I can love others that way. After 8 years I'm still new at this, sometimes I wonder "will I ever get it?" maybe when I go to meet my maker :)
Member: TMG
Location: North
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 12:39:52 PM
When I first started to take a more honest look at "God as we understood Him" in AA, I had no idea what I was getting into! This was a few 24 hours ago, and I am still at it! The religion I was brought up in did nothing to instill any confidence in me towards God, as they taught me He is a mean hateful God that tortures people for all eternity if they don't abide by what the church they go to teaches. I just couldn't swallow that stuff, so I was very much inclined to rebel against it, even at an early age, for I had my first eight years of schooling by the hand of nuns at a Catholic Parochial School! So even though I wasn't consciously thinking of drinking to get away from all that stuff about being tormented in a "hell" forever, the seeds for a career in alcoholism were certainly being planted!! And needless to say they found fertile ground! Then as I grew older I started to hear that Jews were no good for this, that and the other reason; and Protestants weren’t worth the “powder to blow them to hell” either! Not in the classrooms did I hear this, but at home and in other circles I was going around. Being an impressionable youth I suppose I was quite disturbed by all this, for it still bothers me today! So to make a long story short, I did start to get extremely honest with myself in AA, and when I started to advance in spiritual things I fell in with a bunch of people who were just students of the Bible, not affiliating themselves with any of the well established religions, but just meeting in each others homes on Sunday morning to have Bible study meetings. Well I found out through them that there is no such place as a “hell” underneath the earth, that it is all a conspiracy of sorts to keep people enslaved to false religions through fear! That was a great burden to be rid of for me, and then I started to really to grow along spiritual lines.” So for God to remove my defects of character, etc., and I suppose I still have some, took a long time, but I stayed with it “One Day At A Time,” and will continue the same! For now since a new fear of “terrorism” is spreading throughout the earth like an frenzied epidemic, people rush about seeking some refuge in these false-religions, and there is none! And I have confidence that I will be able to prevail against all this fear and war-mongering with only the Bible in my own home and without any hypocritical religions!! “One Day At A Time!”
AND SO I SAY GREETINGS TO TRUTH LOVERS!!
http://www.geocities.com/tmgnorth/
This website has to do with current events in the world, which in so many instances have no clear meaning and are oftentimes interpreted by factional people, places and things that have as many different outlooks and interests as their numbers total! So if an interested observer seeks the true meaning of what these occurrences might be, they are more times than oft left in a state of confusion that in one way or another usually promotes stress and their many aggravations that provoke ill-health! This is indeed a quite unique website for it publishes significant and sometimes even terrifying news events and other issues and how they relate to their only true meaning, to be found in scriptural prophecy! So then being this is so, and there are no kind of commitments requested by the management of this website, it will undoubtedly receive much opposition as it is often hard to digest! Its intention is to help people who might be interested in this, and is in no way political or biased to anybody or anything other than the truth!!
You can find this truly honest website at:
http://www.geocities.com/tmgnorth/
Member: Kim D.
Location: Bridgewater
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 1:57:31 PM
The concept of a Higher Power/God and the accumulation of Faith just did not hit me on the head like Newton's Apple...BOING!!! Instead, it has been a slow, evolving process of experience.
I have gained my faith in a power greater than myself through living life on life's terms - not mine. Many times I have had difficulties in relationships, employment, finances, etc. and have tried to "run the show" and manipulate things to my liking. However, that very seldom worked so after a few months of being sober I began the slow process of turning things over to a being who loved me and who had my best interests at heart - in the long run.
You see, I am a short-sighted, often self-driven human being and can become panicked when things are out of my control and I don't know where they are going or how things will turn out. I have gained trust in God and have formed my concept of a Higher Power through the gradual, day-by-day process of chosing faith over fear and believing that I have a loving presence in my life who knows what's best for me in the long run.
God today, after 2+ years of sobriety, is not anything that I can put my finger on but it is a faith in my heart that I am loved just as I am and will be guided through life gently if I just keep doing the next right thing.
Love you all.
Member: Kim D.
Location: Bridgewater
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 1:57:52 PM
The concept of a Higher Power/God and the accumulation of Faith just did not hit me on the head like Newton's Apple...BOING!!! Instead, it has been a slow, evolving process of experience.
I have gained my faith in a power greater than myself through living life on life's terms - not mine. Many times I have had difficulties in relationships, employment, finances, etc. and have tried to "run the show" and manipulate things to my liking. However, that very seldom worked so after a few months of being sober I began the slow process of turning things over to a being who loved me and who had my best interests at heart - in the long run.
You see, I am a short-sighted, often self-driven human being and can become panicked when things are out of my control and I don't know where they are going or how things will turn out. I have gained trust in God and have formed my concept of a Higher Power through the gradual, day-by-day process of chosing faith over fear and believing that I have a loving presence in my life who knows what's best for me in the long run.
God today, after 2+ years of sobriety, is not anything that I can put my finger on but it is a faith in my heart that I am loved just as I am and will be guided through life gently if I just keep doing the next right thing.
Love you all.
Member: Kim D.
Location: Bridgewater
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 1:58:28 PM
The concept of a Higher Power/God and the accumulation of Faith just did not hit me on the head like Newton's Apple...BOING!!! Instead, it has been a slow, evolving process of experience.
I have gained my faith in a power greater than myself through living life on life's terms - not mine. Many times I have had difficulties in relationships, employment, finances, etc. and have tried to "run the show" and manipulate things to my liking. However, that very seldom worked so after a few months of being sober I began the slow process of turning things over to a being who loved me and who had my best interests at heart - in the long run.
You see, I am a short-sighted, often self-driven human being and can become panicked when things are out of my control and I don't know where they are going or how things will turn out. I have gained trust in God and have formed my concept of a Higher Power through the gradual, day-by-day process of chosing faith over fear and believing that I have a loving presence in my life who knows what's best for me in the long run.
God today, after 2+ years of sobriety, is not anything that I can put my finger on but it is a faith in my heart that I am loved just as I am and will be guided through life gently if I just keep doing the next right thing.
Love you all.
Member: Kim D.
Location: JUST USE THE SCROLL BAR!!!!!
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 2:02:31 PM
OOPPSS!!! So sorry folks. What's up with THAT????? Guess I need an "how to read instructions" refresher course, huh?
DUH!!!
Member: Matt M.
Location: delaware
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 4:51:07 PM
"If my gods were small enough to understand they wouldn't be big enough to do me any good".Once again,someone who came before me has already summed it up nicely.Thank you all for being here and thank you for your lives.Peace,Matt M.
Member: RonZ.
Location: Baltimore
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 10:40:46 PM
Does any one out there also have another disorder besides being alcoholic ? I've got OCD and right now I've been reading about a lot of alcoholics w/ OCD as well that are looking to start a goup up that uses the 12 steps and a higher power to treat both problems. Any news out there about this ? Thanks RonZ.
Member: Lessa E
Location: Chicago
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 11:25:18 PM
Lessa, here, very grateful recovering alcoholic. What a great topic.
Step 2, 'came to believe', took me so very, very long. As a few have mentioned, I was raised Catholic also. I had been sent to priests to be 'cured' of this 'little drinking problem' in my twenties. Didn't work. I ended up convinced I was going to go to hell for all my drinking because no amount of praying would cure it. With and without the priest.
Nonetheless, I went to church weekly, did all kinds of charity work. Just in case I could, in some small way, eliminate some of the 'black marks' in heaven my drinking was causing.
Everything on Step 2 in the 12 & 12 that would cause a person to have difficulty with this step talked about me. I had an education and was intelligent (despite killing my brain cells nightly.) I was raised in a religious (albeit alcoholic) home. I was a scientist by training. All things that, individually, could cause a hindrance in 'coming to believe'. And I had most all of them!
It took a very long time, this 'coming to belive'. Never was the instantaneous sprititual experience Bill W had. It took working and reworking and then working some more on step one. It took alot of meetings. And then more meetings. And even more meetings. Listening, as I do when I read the posts here. And doing what I was told. When I was struggling to come up with an HP, I was told, "there's a time to work the program and a time to let the program work for you." To relax and not try to hard to find an precise notion of God.
And, although I'm a little ashamed to admit it, it took praying when I didn't really believe praying would do anything for me. I mean, I'd done my 'foxhole praying' while drinking. And it never stopped me from picking up the next drink. I forgot it would take followthrough work on my part. And the phrase, 'thy will not mine be done.'
And what a fantastic ride it's been! It was gradual...but it's there now. I had to separate the HP from the God of the church I was raised in at first. And yet, with the miracle of the program, I've been able to go back to the faith I was raised in and actively participate in both it and the program.
What a great topic. Thanks for choosing it, Angela. And I'm awfully glad I got the opportunity to share.
Member: Mary Louise
Location: Indiana
Date: 10/15/2001
Time: 11:45:18 PM
What a great topic!! Thanks to you, Lessa, for especially your last paragraph. I, too, had to separate the God I learned about in church as a child and teen, and the one I found in AA. But I remember when I read in the 12 and 12 that those of us who HAD been a member of a religious organization and found it lacking, were encouraged to GO BACK and CHECK IT OUT again with an open mind, now that we were sober.
Well, I did just that....and imagine my surprise when it all started to make sense. Today I find the same higher power wherever I look...in AA, in church, in the woods, in my grandchildrens' smiles. What a miracle!
I am so grateful to be an alcoholic. Without AA, I would never be the person I am today..and that person is one I can look at in the mirror, and smile back at. because God has forgiven my for all the stuff I did and do, and I can too.
And by staying sober one day at a time, I have a chance to do things better every hour of the day. How cool is that?.
Member: Jeff B
Location: Northern CA
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 12:01:44 AM
Hi my name is Jeff and I am an alcoholic. My struggle (if any) with coming to an understanding of a Higher Power:
I was raised in one of the many churches that was “the only correct way worship God”. It might have taught me everything I ever needed to know and more. I could not stick to it. I was not buying it, or I wanted to be cool and fit in with the partying crowd. I wanted something else. I tried all kinds of things one of them was drinking.
Drinking took me to some exciting places in the beginning, and looking back I was not even present. One or two or 5 and…… kaboom – it was ok. 8 or 9 or 23 and I was in trouble, blacked out, or asleep with my shoes on. Even during my drinking years I knew it changed me and I did not know or care how or why. I liked drinking.
Now I know I can’t drink (or at least should not ever drink). I’ve proven that to myself by trying to drink many things in many different places, amounts, and with different people and alone. I have little or no control once I start, and I can’t stop drinking for any considerable length of time without help. More than that; I don’t like not drinking on my own and I get restless, irritable, and discontent when I try to force my physical sobriety without AA and some power greater than me.
Just not drinking will most likely save me or someone else an untimely death caused by drunkenness. I want something more. I have learned that in AA.
The abc’s at the end of “How it Works” (p.60) is where I need to start today. That’s me. Then I need to remember that my life run on my will can not be a success and decide to let God run the show. The action steps 4-9 allow me to slowly clean away the dirt of my past and start to fit in with you and others and God. 10 11 and 12 will keep me cleaner and help me grow. I get to keep trying.
Knowing and doing are sometimes very different things for me. Some days I just hang on; my hope is to not experience that as often. But I live for those days that are so much more. Without AA and my God (sometimes maybe yours on loan) I would not have had any of those good days. I need to remember the good ones, the bad ones, and everything in between while I am sober because there will be more. I have a chance again today – what a gift! There will be more good ones if I do my part and look for a way to make it so. Maybe today- who knows? I am starting to see more good days since I stopped drinking. I started trying AA. I started trying and sometimes remembering to look for something other than me. I also need to remember that the day I decided to stop drinking and call AA again seemed like a very bad day when it happened, and now it is one of my favorite days.
My understanding is very limited, but I believe that my higher power understands me and wants me to be happy, comfortable, and free - not all the time but enough - he wants me to trust him and act like it. You all and the AA's at traditional meetings and out remind me and encourage me to keep looking for the good/God/Life (whatever, whenever, and wherever I can). You also remind me to just sit still sometimes and relax (Not to struggle at times). But then you remind me to continue. Thanks everyone for being here.
Member: RickT
Location: Rocky Mountains
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 2:39:10 AM
Hi, my name is Rick and I'm a drunk.The first 3 years I was in AA all I could do was do what my sponsor told me to do. I was afraid to do anything else. He told me I had to find MY higher power,that step 2 didnt say"have a fully developed concept of a hgher power NOW!" Step 2 says "CAME to belive" that means that if somewhere in my scrambled brains there was the possibility that MAYBE,just maybe there was the slightest possibility of a power greater than myself, then I could come to believe. Step 2 is a lifestyle step it never ends. I never really had a problem with beliving in God,my problem was with faith. I love analogies so let me do one for you now. Lets say you go to a circus and watch the high wire act. He say's he will push a wheel barrel across the high wire to the other side. Now you BELIVE he can do this because he did it in the town before your and the one before that,its what he does for a living. You belive. Then he ask's you specficly to let him push YOU across the wire in his wheelbarrel. You BELIVE but it takes FAITH to get in the wheelbarrel. Faith is in your actions. At 3 years sober I went on a quest for the answer to the question that I could'nt shake. Ok I believe there is a God,only he could have kept me sober,here's the question;What does he require of me? I spent another 3 years looking always ending up in the same place ... The God of Abraham,the God of the Bible. I'll tell you what I DID NOT want to go there! I mean I gave up drinking and drugs,I sure didnt want to give up the other "good" stuff. This is where God's goodness was made evident to me,in spite of my denial of him,he used a woman from my home meeting who couldnt put 30 days together to lead me to a personal relationship with Him. I hate to admit it now but I was looking down my nose at her (dont let anyone tell you there is no hierarcy in AA) and God used the least of his own to show me WHO he is. No matter how long you have been sober,EVEYONE in the meeting has something to offer. So whats the answer to the question-what does God require of me? To love God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. I can live with that,its not easy but every day is a new day when Gods got your back. Thru the grace of God I didnt drink today. Peace and God Bless.
Member: Mark W.
Location: near the BIG croquet wicket
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 11:38:56 AM
I have several "footsteps in the sand" plaques in my home. I try NOT to forget they are there, and to look them over each day. You see, I was an unbeliever, as many AAers were, prior to working the steps. Today I have NO DOUBT that God IS there, and carries me when I cannot drag myself through the next right thing. The goal as I see it, it to see no places in the forseeable future, or recent path where there are not two sets of prints. I am progressing..... Mark W. LMW007@aol.com
Member: carol D.
Location:
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 12:32:34 PM
Hi, My name is carol. and I AM AN ALCHOLIC. I JUST started going to alcholic classes and this is my third week of going. I grew up in a christain home, my father was a preacher. My parents were very strict, with all of us kids, and I think that is why we all turned out the way that we did. I have problems being around people and I think it is because of the way that we were raised up as kids. People always thought that I was stuck up, but that isn't it at all. AND I have had to live with this all my life, and that is a big part of the reason that I started drinking so that I could communicate with people better. AND that is my story.
Member: vini b
Location: L.A.
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 1:03:38 PM
Vini-alcoholic, up to know i still haven't made up my mind to stongly support the notion of a higher power. from what i read, it makes perfect sense. i doubt the notion at times, i guess i am being stubborn. i just don't know why i fight it. if and when i find it, and understand it then perhaps i'll be able lick this problem. i should just open my mind, heart and soul to a hp and then maybe all will be solved. maybe i am just scare at facing the changes i will be going through. i don't think it would be anything bad, but not being prepare for this might be what is creating a conflict in me. i am willing to take the chance now though, after reading the comments posted. thanks everyone for sharing.
Member: Greg N
Location: MI
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 1:51:17 PM
I've always had faith, albeit stronger at times than others, but have come to realize that giving in to a higher power is not the same as religion in my mind. Realizing that you are constantly being guided by your own higher power (jesus, buddah, allah, etc.) and have to accept the plans laid out for you, and realizing that the intent for you is based in absolute love... these are the key elements in accepting the higher power concept. Even if you scoff at particular religions (as I have in the past) you can still apply this concept to your own beliefs and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, make the program work for you!
Member: Brad W.
Location: Las Vegas, NV (for now)
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 6:02:16 PM
I'm Brad and I'm most definitely an alcoholic. I just wanted to say "thanks" to all the newcomers that took the time to share, and to the folks that tried the way of the drink yet again, "welcome home." You see, my head tries to tell me that I'm different from my fellow man, even alcoholics like myself. However, this is statement far from the truth. 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 years, 2 decades, my mind and my alcoholism will try to isolate me from my fellow man, rendering me without recourse to fend off my alcoholic thinking. It's only when I get together with another alcoholic like myself that I can get a true glimpse at the truth, or usually delusion, of my thinking.
Member: Connie C.
Location: Northern California
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 6:18:24 PM
I always believed in something, some Reality underlying everything. I call it God. When I came into AA and was relieved of my desire to drink at my very first meeting, I had no doubt that "Something" unseen was at work. But then I began to read the Big Book. I had a BIG problem with the notion of a God as "creator," "father," "maker" and what have you. These are, in fact, Judeo-Christian notions and terms. I felt that regardless of the AA teaching that I was free to use my own concept of God, that Bill W, the author of the Big Book, had actually presupposed that I would eventually have to adopt his ideas. One day I came across an old Grapevine in which there was an article written by Bill in the 1970's, in which he wrote that in earlier years he had been "spiritually arrogant." He admitted that he had once believed that alcoholics would and should adopt his views about God's nature. He wrote that he felt regret that by pushing his own spiritual views, he may have turned alcoholics in need of help away from the program. I was extremely relieved to read this article. It freed me from debating with the Big Book. It also showed me that Bill was just an alcoholic like the rest of us, and that by practicing the principles over a number of years, he was able to see something in himself which he called "spiritual pride" or "arrogance" and wanted to make amends for it. I love AA, I have always loved AA. I feel that it is a miracle and a gift from some power which is really unnameable and unknowable. Why we have been chosen to be given this gift, I don't know. I don't have a God who sits above and directs traffic. But something is going on all the time, something is happening underneath all creation, something I am in awe of.
Member: Chris K
Location: Hawaiian Rainforest
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 7:41:23 PM
Aloha gang - Altho I have 20+ yrs of recovery, I too have struggled with the HP thing recently. I have come to realize that I have been afraid that God will not care for me, and that he will abandon me. This most definitely arises from the relationship I had with my first "Higher Powers" - my parents. Because of those relationships, my survival was dependent on ME, and so I have thought ever since. But of course, self-sufficiency failed me as utterly as did alcohol. For a while there, my existence was shot through with fear. I knew I couldn't do it on my own, but really did not trust God either. This, in spite of the fact that I have been sober so long and that there was so much evidence in my life that God does love me. It's taken a lot of meetings, finding a sponsor I trust (with less time than me - but I want what she has!) and re-embarking on the steps...I am starting to believe again, and faith is returning. I guess the point is that for this alcoholic, faith is an ebb and flow, and when I feel afraid and alone, it's time to reconnect to YOU and "lean not on my own understanding". I agree with those who have said to RonZ that online meetings are a good supplement, and that face2face ones are the real heart of the program. Especially facing OCD, it is probably a good idea to NOT isolate at home with the computer. When feeling unbalanced (for me it is depression) for me it is best to act as if - do the behaviors of a "normal" person - rather than spiral downward into the unbalance. God bless you RonZ and grant you courage.
Member: SCOTT B
Location: NY STATE
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 9:00:05 PM
YES I BELIEVE IN A HIGHER POWER BUT IT ALSO TAKES WILL POWER. I HAVE BEEN SOBER FOR A YEAR NOW. I WENT TO ABOUT 20 AAA MEETINGS,AND I MET ALOT OF NICE PEOPLE WHO SHARED THEIR TROUBLES AND THOUGHTS ABOUT ALCOHOL WITH ME.I GUESS MY HIGHER POWER WANTED ME TO DO IT ON MY OWN FOR I HAVE NOT BEEN TO A MEETING IN OVER 6 MONTHS,AND I BELEIVE THE STEPS OF AAA ARE FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE NO URGE TO STOP DRINKING. JUST LOOK AT THE % OF PEOPLE WHO GO BACK TO THEIR OLD LIFESTYLE. DON'T TAKE ME WRONG AAA HAS SOME GOOD TO IT,BUT YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE DESIRE AND THE WILLPOWER TO STOP DRINKING.NO HIGHER POWER WILL DO IT FOR YOU.
Member: Smarter than you
Location: AA
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 9:15:08 PM
Excuse me......Scott B-is it? Well this is AA not AAA-thats for to keep you in your car-AA will keep you out of a bar!!!!
Duh!!!!!!!!!
Member: SOBER
Location: NY STATE
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 9:42:15 PM
EXCUSE ME SMARTER THAN YOU, I SLIPPED WITH THE A's. I DO NOT THINK IT IS AA THAT KEEPS YOU OUT OF THE BARS IT IS PEOPLE THAT ARE SMART ENOUGH TO REALIZE THAT ALOCHOL IS RUINING THEIR LIVES. HAVE YOU EVER LOOKED AT THE SUCCESS RATE OF AA? GET A LIFE DUH!!!!!!!!!
Member: Smitty B
Location: Northern California
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 10:53:31 PM
Hi my name is Smitty and I'm an alcoholic. I too quit AA meetings after getting sober - but when I came back 7 years later, I was an "insane dry drunk." For me, AA is not about getting sober but learning how to live without the need to hide behind alcohol, drugs, food, relationships, work, etc. I've been without alcohol for a lot of years now, but I cannot make it on a day-to-day basis without the 12 Steps that give me direction for living and all of you - at face-to-face meetings. My Higher Power - is with me always, drunk or sober, how I respond – wet, dry or recoverying drunk – is my choice.
Gage, I liked what you said "Fortunately, all I'm supposed to do is attempt to grow in understanding of God and try to discover his will for me." I'd rather do that with anyone whom lives their life through the 12-Steps because we are of one mind and one heart.
My first online meeting - great topic.
Member: angela b.
Location: ky
Date: 10/16/2001
Time: 11:23:32 PM
hi im angela im an alcholic. to me meetins are important. i havent been to a meeting in a week im about to go crazy. i just come back into the rooms only by the grace of god. i seem to put other people before myself. ive been sober for 3 months this time. i always seem to try to makeother people happy except me.i do talk to my sponser pretty much every day.still am crazy.
Member: lisa m
Location: LA
Date: 10/17/2001
Time: 1:22:25 AM
my name is lisa and i am a alcoholic,my choice in step 2 was not easy for me.i hated god and did not want anything to do with the god thing.worse than that i couldn't live anymore wanting to die.after working a through step 1,seing the insanity in my life and not having no other way out besides suicide i became willing to believe that there just might be something greater then me that could restore me to sanity.and as i worked the steps and followed directions from my sponsor my belief in something became faith in GOD as i understand him. it was a process i had to go tbrough.today i am greatful to my GOD that i was willing take the action even when i didn't believe in it. faith without work is dead.i haven't wanted to die,in over 4 years.my life is good, thanks to GOD.yet i still have to take action. i go to meetings,sponsor other women, i meet with my sponsor regularly,work the 12 steps and ask for his will to be done in my life on a daily basis.
Member: Jack B
Location: Palo Alto, Pa
Date: 10/17/2001
Time: 2:38:51 AM
Hi, I am Jack, a real alcoholic. We suffer from a threefold disease. That of the mind, body, and soul. Alcohol took away from me any faith I had in God, it became my higher power, it turned me into anybody I wanted to be, except who I was. I always believed in the God of the Bible, however I didn't have faith that God loved someone who did the things I did. My faith in God was restored when the obsession to drink was lifted, and he has given me a daily reprieve from alcohol for almost 14 years of continous sobriety. If I could understand God, he would be too small to do me any good. All I know about God today, is that it isn't me, and he does for me on a daily basis what I am not capable of doing for myself. I truly believe God reveals himself to me as I reveal myself to me. This is a program of spiritual progress, not spiritual perfection.All I know is deep down inside me, is a feeling that tells me that no matter what happens in my life today, everything will be all right. That I truly believe is the Grace of God in me. I don't know about anyone else in my home group, but when we hold hands at the end of our meeting and pray the Lord's Prayer I feel something passing thru me, what I believe that is, is the Grace of God passing from one alcoholic to another. Thanks for allowing me to share and God Bless.
Member: Bob
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada
Date: 10/17/2001
Time: 8:27:26 AM
Thanks Angela for the timely choice I am Bob an alcoholic After another night of drinking I woke up this morning real fed with my situation. I decided to have a honest talk with God. I admited to him that I was really sorry for everything I had done wrong, I beg for mercy and asked him to show me the way. When you talk with God you know you can't cheat him. After my honest talk I felt so good inside, just like tons of weight had been removed. Shortly after my prayer I sat at my computer to get my e-mail. Guest what, a friend of mine for no apparent reasons had sent me 3 pictures of Jesus and one message that said "Jesus loves us". From their I decided to check this site just to find out that this week topic is about finding God. The minute you find your Higher Power you will feel this great inner peace inside your heart.
Good luck everyone
Bob
Member: Ron m.
Location: louisiana
Date: 10/17/2001
Time: 1:21:18 PM
Hi: I,m Ron M. a real aa. Step two first of all said that I was insane. My history proved to me true with all the trouble I put my self through.The problems were of my own making even though I thought that most of the people around me were at fault. I did not like the cards I was dealt in life. So I really blame My god for the situations that i got myself in. But, with good friends in AA I got to see the whole picture of my deeds. So I came too in AA.I quess what we would call a spiritual awakening, you see that it was all in my mind and my old ideas, that put me in the trouble I was in. So i had to look at it in a diferent light. So I threw in the cards that were deal to me and got a new hand. And life has gotten different for me and the people about me. So if by the grace of a loving higher power I have a chance to change the things that have been blocking me from having a personnel understanding of my god. Only he can restore me to sanity, if I'm willing to take the rest of the steps in the order that they are to do. Thanks for letting me share my experince strenght and hope with ya'll love and service is our code
Member: Cathy
Location: WA
Date: 10/17/2001
Time: 1:46:42 PM
I like the topic. "God is everything or he is nothing" really sticks with me - I know for some the best words to use are higher power. I've always had a relationship with God - when I was drinking it was usually closer when I needed help, or was in trouble. Now, I try very hard to make my relationship with God work every day - even if I'm having a good day already. I figure through my years of stupidity and selfishness - there is something that has kept me alive and able to live a good life today - I know that for me it will only stay good if I don't drink - and thinking of God as an "everything or nothing" in my life helps me stay in the right mind frame most of the time. Thanks. Cathy
Member: ZACK,W.
Location: ORANGE,TX.
Date: 10/17/2001
Time: 4:03:43 PM
THANKYOU ANGELA, YOU HAVE HELPED ME A GREAT DEAL I AM ZACK AND I HAVE AGAIN COME IN OUT OF THE COLD, I WAS IN REHAB A FEW YEARS AGO AND STAYED SOBER FOR SOME TIME BUT THEN I STOPPED GOING TO MEETINGS AND WAS RUINED AGAIN THIS TIME WORSE THAN BEFORE, I STARTED MY 1ST STEP MON. 10/15, AND THIS MORNING AFTER READING ALLL MORNING IN THE BB, I HAVE GIVEN MY SELF TO MY HP WHICH I CHOOSE TO CALL GOD, I AM CRYING FROM HAPPINESS AS I WRITE THIS, FOR I HAVEN'T FELT THIS PEACE IN YEARS, YOUR COMMENTS HERE HAVE HELPED ME MAKE IT THROUGH THIS DAY SO FAR WITHOUT A DRINK, I KNOW HOW THE PROGRAM WORKS, AND WITH THE HELP OF GOD AND AA PERHAPS I CAN STAY SOBER AND GET MY LIFE TOGETHER, PEACE TO ALL.
Member: Kim
Location: LA
Date: 10/17/2001
Time: 5:14:50 PM
Thanks Smitty. I just began attending AA meetings. I know I have a problem with alcohol and I want to deal with my occasional binges before they get worse. I grew up in a severely alcoholic home and personally have been more compulsive with food than alcohol, however, I can see how the addiction can easily switch over. I'm not sure where my path is headed, however, I have a surface understanding of the twelve steps and I love the idea about learning how to deal with life... not something I learned in my alcoholic home. I believe in and love God with all my heart and in an odd way I wonder if addictions aren't a way that God taps us on our shoulders to remind us of Him and our need for Him. God bless you all.
Member: Liz
Location: Kenya
Date: 10/17/2001
Time: 5:25:53 PM
Hi I am Liz and alcoholic the share about growing up in a severe religious atmosphere kind of hit a nerve, because i grew up that way and sometimes the memories still sting. My father was a catholic married to mum, a protestant. My father thought that there was a "conspiracy" to convert us kids into protestants so as a result we were thrown into extreme catholism.We went to convent school and we could not think or say anything protestant (what ever that is-Yes but there were things considered protestant like praying with eyes open, certain hymns etc). we were told that they were bad people. Obviously we wondered what could possibly be wrong with mum - but my parents were like that - still are like that.To this day mum tries to convince me that dad's a monster and dad does likewise.
The convent experience like others have shared was a harrowing one, alot of punishment and funny words like chastity amd purity were agrily flung into our faces even though we had no idea what they meant or how to achieve them. I left the convent and never looked in the direction of a church, a priest or a nun again.
That was until I got to the program and recovered a Higher Power.For the first time in my life there was God and love in the same sentence. There was no more fear of life, of eternal condemnation or of a bolt of lightening headed in my direction!. Suddenly God was on my side, was there to help me and wasn't waiting to strike me down or send a plague to my family. Suddenly I found myself returning to my original faith, finding positive, encouraging guidance -not threats.Suddenly I found I can walk into a curch without that feeling as if I was walking on a tight rope -I find peace and serenity inside there, I feel the precence of God around me and its not ominous, dark, gloomy bad tempered or menancing.That was the first God I knew, and actually it wasn't God at all, it was someone else's somewhat twisted perception of God. Today I don't have to follow that I have my own God who loves me.
That's a hell of an acheivement for a program that requires no fees or dues. Where the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking!!!!
Member: Anne S.
Location: Citrus Heights California
Date: 10/17/2001
Time: 8:42:08 PM
Hi,
My name is Anne and I am an alcoholic and an addict. I struggle with the God in my life. At times I believe strongly in him and at other times I feel like he doesn't really care about me. I must simply practice prayer and meditation constantly and "fake it til I make it". God either is or he isn't, I choose to believe he is whether or not I "feel" him.
Member: Dayle
Location:
Date: 10/17/2001
Time: 11:00:39 PM
What a great topic and what great sharing! I'm so glad I found this site - now I have something to hold on to when I can't make my regular meetings -what a difference it is already making. God is with each of us always. Thank you all so much.
Member: Rick P.
Location: Denver
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 1:17:54 AM
Hello from a lonely hotel room in Denver. My new sponser asked to devote the next year to following the will of God. The next day I found myself in a temporary postition which is taking me all over the United States. his a scary time to be doing this, however, my higher power (GOD) is taking care of me.
This internet site taking care of my need for a meeting.
Member: meg s.
Location: lewes,Delaware
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 2:35:45 AM
hi meg addict,thanks to all who shared on the topic.It helped me a lot.I've bin in and out of meetings since 16,Im 21 now I got 3 months clean and on step two. Im not strugaling that bad but it helped a lot thanks Angela.I plane to be back soon thanks for leting me share
Member: ChuckM
Location: Alberta
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 4:10:32 AM
I'm Chuck, an alcoholic
I was conditioned to believe, when I was young that God did not like what I thought, felt or did. Consequently, I was headed for Hell.
This stopped me from committing suicide more than once. I was in no hurry to jump from the frying pan(life) into the fire of Hell.
This also robbed me of my higher power and I lived a life of fear untill I got into AA.
The AA God is positive and friendly. I found I could not go on with step 3 with my negative God. I could not voluntarilly surrender to my enemy.
In chapter 5 of the BB just before the third step prayer it tells me the how of it. my selection was " He is the father, I am the child" is the relationship I wanted.
I thought about my son and daughter and what I wanted for them. I want them to be happy joyous and free. I would not sentence them to a fiery hell, I would help their life's journey, not make life a living hell.
If a poor slob like me would be positive to my creations(children) how could I possibly believe that God, who designed me, would want to hurt me. That is not logical.
I swung around 180 degrees to the opinion that God never would hurt me or anybody else at any time anywhere.
All the evil and hurts in this world is caused by mankind practicing free will, not God.
I don't know where I read this, but it explains the problems of the world.
God created the animals and they must do God's will. We call that instincts, and they have no choice but to live that way. God created mankind and He gave us free will. That means He gave everyone free will. It turns out that some people are good and some are bad. All the bad things in the world are caused by bad people practicing free will.
What has been totally missed is the rest of His message. He said I give you free will, but if you want to be happy, joyous and free give back your will and do mine.
I now see that the AA program found in the Big Book is showing me the best way to change from my will to God's will. Now I understand why I have
Peace and Serenity
Member: R. S.
Location: midwest
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 6:39:30 AM
I believe there are two forces in the world: love and fear. God is love and fear is the absence of love, which is God. In my drinking days, there was no room for God because the addiction took all my time and energy. It was impossible to hear that "still, small voice" when my brain was in the fog of alcohol. It took a leap of faith to face the fear which had accumulated over the years, and give God a chance. Since then, I have several spiritual experiences that led me to believe that God could and would help me with my disease. I know longer fear God, and I KNOW that he will not abandon me when I screw up. People do that, God does not. Carol D., I was raised in a similar fashion, and carried the scars for years. People thought, and I suppose still do at times, that I was "stuck up." I was just scared as hell.(No intended irony there). There are times when I still get scared, but I center myself by the Grace of God, and go forth, despite my fear. Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather action in spite of it. Faith can be thought of in a similar fashion.
Member: Lionel C
Location: campbelltown Australia
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 8:19:55 AM
hello everyone my names lionel recovering alcoholic.Three pertinent ideas: a)That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives b)That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism. C)That God could and would if He were sought." If He were sought"Of myself i cannot stay sober.Love u all'Like most of you.Lionel_C ps Hi Angela God topic o
Member: AnilG
Location: Mt Vernon,IL
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 11:26:38 AM
I am alcoholic GOD IS OR HE IS'NOT .First when I started first I was agnostic being a scientist need a proof of everything but later I relized that HP has to be there 'cause there are so many things that are not known to scince as yet. specialy when comes to our insanity after drinking which has only one cure HP.Thanks to AA members.
Member: Mike C
Location: Elizabethtown PA
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 12:28:55 PM
Hi my names Mike and im an alcoholic i like the topic im still stugglin with god i use me father who pased away when i was five years old i liked what tina shared i my self guestioned god i use to say if hes so magical why didnt he cure my Dads cancer when my x step father movied in why did he lett him beet me then my teen life was hell i sarted drinkin at the age of 12 im 24 now i been threw all kinds of grap do tomy addiction i basicily questioned why he kept me alive but in AA and workin my steps talkin to my sponser that i was a prisoner in my on body trin to escape yep and one day at a time ill get better i have 9mths and hope to keep goin i am prayin to god and i ask his forginess but im goin to keep comin back i love AA and so far what it has done for me im gratfull to be at this meetin dont know how much sence im makin but o well thats all i have to share
Member:
Location: U.S.
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 12:44:24 PM
Dear alcoholics. May God bless us all, as our struggles have been great. I pray for peace and I pray for the souls of those who have harmeds us and those who intend to do us harm. May God bless our souls, and I pray for each and every alcoholic who still suffers. God may we have the strength to face all that life has in store for us and arrive victoriously on the other side in peace. Deliver us from evil, and show us the path to reconciliation dear lord.
May God watch over you all and bless you. Please look after my family and extended family, and that throught the tribulation we will again see happiness, peace, and prosperity.
Member: Marie
Location: Portland Maine
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 2:05:40 PM
It took me over 6 years of being "dry" and completely miserable to come back into the fellowship. I had accumulated all of the "outside" stuff over my dry period and everything looked really good on the outside but if you lit a match too near me I would have gone up in flames. I was so miserable and lost. No matter what I bought, what job I had, what I ate (ha!!) no matter what...I was completely empty. Nothing I tried would fill me up inside. Finally in January of this year - my 6th anniversary of being clean and sober - I couldn't take it anymore (anyone who has had an anniversary will understand about that feeling around anniversary time). I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. Mostly I was so lonely and so alone.
I started going to meetings again on a regular basis and have been to at least six a week since my decision to humble (!) myself and come back to the fellowship. I was blessed with a sponsor who has helped me see that I am not all-powerful. That my Higher Power kept me safe while I was away, that I had to do what I had to do to get to the belief that I have today. That I am not alone; that nothing that happens to me happens by mistake and everything is a lesson to be learned. I see God in people everyday. No matter what kind of day I'm having I believe that my Higher Power is with me.
When I MADE A DECISION to turn my will over to the care of God as I understand him, my life changed - I changed spiritually. It was a gradual process, of course, but I was so desperate for something, anything to fill up that void that I had inside myself. And I have so much more work to do too. And thank God because if I was all healed and "perfect" I may as well just have a drink!
It came down to one thing - my sponsor told me to believe that she believes. I prayed to her "goddess" until I was able to find my own unpunishing Higher Power (as a recovering Catholic this took a bit of work). So, please -believe that I believe! I love my life today and I love the Fellowship and the Program of Alcoholics Anonymous. Thank you all for being here.
Stay safe, get in the middle, and keep coming back.
Member: Mark C.
Location: NYC
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 2:26:38 PM
Hi, I'm Mark, an alcoholic from NYC.
I'm also an atheist. What I mean by that is that, unlike agnostics, there is no doubt in my mind as to the existence of a God. I am sure that there is no such thing.
But when I came to this site a year ago yesterday, I was much less sure. In fact, I was sick and confused. The fellowship of AA, and another fellowship of alcoholics over at www.unhooked.com have helped me stay sober, and at the same time, helped me to grow spiritually. In my case, spiritual growth has meant really coming to terms with what is important in life, and making sense of all the philosophical and spiritual information around me. As a result, am happy to be able to state my position with confidence. I have just as much faith in a world governed by natural law as any of my friends have in a world governed by divine law. That feels good.
Do I have a higher power? Yes I do. I believe that my actions and my life are governed by physical laws, including those physical laws that work together to create and maintain addiction. Realizing that I am powerless to change that has been my salvation.
So there you have it, drunk just about every day for fifteen years, and then saved by a Group Of Drunks (G-O-D). Thank you all for your open mindedness, but most of all for being there to help keep me sober for an entire year.
Mark C.
Member: Sandy B
Location: cool colorful Colorado
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 3:23:10 PM
Wow! I went to the 12 and 12 meeting & remembered how my Higher Power helped me with one of my most difficult Step 9 amends, then came to this meeting!
I am grateful it says, "God could and would if he were SOUGHT." It doesn't say FOUND. I have such a busy mind that I need my HP up there in my head first & foremost! Right between my ears is where all my problems start, so I ask my HP to giude my actions AND my thinking.
I also remember the first time I read that part on p.53, just below what Angela started us out with, about not being able to step ashore. That was me: a degree in Philosophy, followed by years of additional readings in many religions and belief systems, looking for the one that MADE SENSE, and just disgusted that they ALL seemed to require that <expletive deleted> leap of faith!
My experience was my outpatient counselor ASSIGNING me the Big Book to read (it hooked me), then coming into AA and finding all these wonderful REAL people actually trying to follow the stuff in the book! So much different from any church community I've ever been involved with! AA really was just what I had been looking for all those years. I really WANTED what you all had! I didn't really want to stop drinking to get it though -- so I just drank LESS! Progress not perfection, right ?
After aout a year of going to one AA meeting a week and not telling that I was still drinking "a little" (not recommended, but it's what happened to me), my desire to drink was lifted. I was stunned. I didn't trust it at first, but after a few weeks, I couldn't even find it up in my head! I mean I could NOT get to that place mentally where I WANTED to drink or use! After that, I had no doubt that (1) God exists and (2) God cares about me personally -- enough to CHANGE me in ways I couldn't possibly accomplish -- or even imagine -- on my own.
Today, it's not my place to judge anyone's spiritual progress -- even my own. Based on my own experience, and that of many others in AA, I know it to be true that God can and will, if sought!
Member: Patricia
Location: NEW YORK (USA)
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 5:15:08 PM
Hi to all fellow AA's. Thanks Angela for an excellent topic. I came to believe in a power greater than myself which I choose to call God. This happened when I had about 2 years in the program and my sponsor told me that as soon as I stop writing the script and trying to be in control of everything around me, I can truly let go and let God. Thanks to everyone on the site that shared. You all are keeping me sober another day! P.S. USA your message is absolutely powerful. You touched my heart and made me stop and reflect on the beautiful gift of sobriety! Peace and Love to ALl
Member: Jay T.
Location: Illinois
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 7:17:30 PM
Hi My name is Jay,a grateful recovering alcoholic. I first like to give thanks to my higher power Jesus Christ , for giving me another day and allowing me to share . Yes God is.Ive learn thru AA that i am a slow learner, that in order for me to really get it i need repetition. I've been blessed since i first came into the program june 1982 God has kept me in (sober).The 2nd and 3rd steps are practice steps even today. Because AA teaches us to live life on life terms.God has all power i'm powerless. thanks angela for the topic
Member: John O'L
Location: DFW Texas USA
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 7:21:09 PM
My name is John and I am an alcoholic.
I enjoy watch the TV show "Touched by an Angel".
Some might find this show a bit simplistic, however the message "God Loves You!" is a message that appeals to me, and I like the way that this show presents that message. I feel good after watching it, much the same as how I feel after an AA meeting.
When I began to understand that God loves me and wants the best for me and wants me to be the best person I can be, it was easier for me to strive to be better. As I perform what I perceive to be God's Will in my life, such as being of service to other alcoholics, it makes it easier for me to follow the path of sobriety.
I've been to Hell here on earth. I lived there for years while I was drinking. It was a horrible place that I pray all who are there now will someday be able to escape. God does not want us, his children, to live in Hell. But, it is our choice. If I choose to go back to alcohol, then I can return to Hell. God certainly didn't put me there, doesn't want me to be there, and will provide all the assistance and encouragement in the universe if I will but choose to follow His guidance. For me, this guidance includes, but is not limited to, the Ten Commandments, the Bible, and Big Book of AA.
It took me a long time to come to an understanding of God as I understand Him. And, when I did, it helped me to move from the Hell of active alcoholism to the peace and joy of striving for serenity.
God Bless and keep you all! John O'L / DFW Texas USA
Member: Jimmy
Location: H bomb
Date: 10/18/2001
Time: 7:51:33 PM
Virtual Church of the Blind Chiahuha named after a little old dog with cataracts, who barked sideways at strangers, because he couldn't see where they were. We humans relate to God in the same way, making noise in God's general direction, and expecting a reward for doing so. Hence our creed: We can't be right about everything we believe. Thank God, we don't have to be! Nuff said!
www.dogchurch.org
Member: Ray W.
Location: Sodus, N.Y.
Date: 10/19/2001
Time: 2:54:36 AM
I'm an alcoholic named Ray I finally came to believe after staying sober (dry) for four and a half years and then picking up a drink. I only drank for one night, but all the hopelessness came back into my life even after I started going to meetings on a daily basis. My second wife and I had recently spit up and I was living on a friends couch. One night the pain of living became so great that the only thoughts coming through my head were to either go across the street to a bar, or go down the street to the canal and jump in. I had been crying myself to sleep for two weeks before this. For some reason I dropped to my knees and cried out for help. I didn't notice anything right away, but starting the next night I stopped crying myself to sleep. It's been a long haul over the years, but I now know that a power greater than myself was with me that night and all I had to do was ask.
Member: Mike M.
Location: Ohier
Date: 10/19/2001
Time: 8:52:34 AM
For an exercise is profound randomness, visit the website for the poster two posts above me.
I'm not sure I do believe, or that I have to. I just don't drink and don't want to. Even if I want to, I won't. Meetings are a nice way to make friends, as long as you use common sense to avoid the serious yahoos, and never, ever, date another AA, no matter what.
Member: Steve K
Location: Swan Lake,N.Y.
Date: 10/19/2001
Time: 12:03:17 PM
Hi Stve- I HAVE BEEN SOBER AS OF LAST SATURDAY
Member: Steve K
Location: Swan Lake,N.Y.
Date: 10/19/2001
Time: 12:04:52 PM
Hi Stve- I HAVE BEEN SOBER AS OF LAST SATURDAY. ONE YEAR
Member: Bobbye E dos 8-25-86
Location: McKinney TX via DFW Airport
Date: 10/19/2001
Time: 9:52:51 PM
Room Huggs! Hey all: this sober drunk only knows a few things bout God:
There is one I am not him He never turns his back on anyone who seeks him And there are only 4 direct answers; Yes, No, Wait a while, and You have got to be kidding.
This God deal can be a stumper, the struggle is worth it. Most good things in recovery happen in my life immediately following a prideful surrender.
Selfishness and Self-centeredness prop up my arrogance and isolation.
You know the saying that God will not give you more than you can handle. Well that may be true of Alanons and Normies, but with addicts and drunks it seems to be the opposite. We always get more than we can handle so that we HAVE to reach out to God's other kids, finding we are not alone. And to give US something we CAN see feel and hear. If we can do it on our own, we do not need God, we play god in our own lives and in the lives of those around us. Because, honestly it is the best we can do. That is my experience, strength and hope on that.
Love Yall, Bobbye
Member: luckeyboy
Location:
Date: 10/20/2001
Time: 8:37:50 AM
sit on my dick i need a big fat assed woman to
squash my boner i am luckeyboy
Member: luckeyboy
Location:
Date: 10/20/2001
Time: 8:40:38 AM
oh sorry im on wrong page go togot to go to coffee pot page
Member: Ed G,
Location: Bryan
Date: 10/20/2001
Time: 8:53:11 AM
Hi I am Ed an alcoholic , God has always been there with me knowing and seeing it all. Without him as my higher powder I won't have made this far in my soberity. I get up in the moring and give thanks and ask for the strenght to get through a other day. At night I give thanks for making it through the day. So keep taking one day at a time.
Member: Bonny G
Location: Hot Springs, AR
Date: 10/20/2001
Time: 9:02:14 AM
Hi all, Bonny, grateful recoverying alcoholic, I find it nice that a home towner posted the topic this week. "Our struggle with coming to the belief of a Higher Power." I always knew there was a God, and I wasn't Him, but I just wished you would have shown me that I didn't have "all the answers." (An old thing my Dad use to tell me that I did have, because of "who" I was.) Today I'm struggling with the "insides trying to meet the outsides." "Act as if", I heard that from the old timers in '89. I know a drink today is not an option, the next right step is where I must go. I was grateful to be at my home group last night and got some good shares from the table, it lets me know that God still is. Even with the Group of Drunks. I've got to go back to the "den", God didn't move I did. Today I can start a new day, and this month I've celebrated 8 years of sobriety, and I'm not too old to go back and do the first things first again. I've thought long and hard this month on the changes that God has allowed to happen in my life, and I've thought of the things I did in 1989 when I first came to AA, and I think it's time to renew the experience again. I know there are some things I've stopped doing, that I need to put back into practice. My struggles today are in "not" trusting my higher power, whom I chose to call God, with all my day and the events thereof. Thanks to all of you who have shared this week.
Member: Chris H.
Location: Fla.
Date: 10/20/2001
Time: 2:18:01 PM
I'm Chris..an alcoholic/addict/bulimic---greatful to be here one more day, and greatful to the program of a.a. that has so much to teach us about this thing called life. I have always believed in God, but it wasn't until I came into A.A. that i really began to understand that I didn't have to be perfect(Progress not perfection!!!). Not that i ever was, but I spent so much time trying and never getting there, that I was constantly beating myself up and using over it. NOw , I have learned so much more about a loving God and I am forever greatful. WHat I struggle with now is trying to figure out what He wants me to do...I feel thaes "urges" that I think are from Him about whether I am supposed to do this or that... and If I don't folllow those urges , I think that I will be punished. I guess that doesn't sound like it is from a loving GOd. Mabey I still do struggle with whether or not He really accepts me as I am or mabey I still struggle with His forgiveness. I don't feel very free...Or mabey I just don't want to surrender to His will...MAbey I don't trust that WHat He wants for me is the best. Which means that I don't trust that He is good and loving...I don't know...I am just struggling with this right now.... I'm sorry to be airing my struggles instead of my experience , strength and hope , but I just felt the need to write about this. Actually, It sounds like I am not very greatful right now...so I will spend time thinkg about that, and that will probably bring me out of my funk!!Thanks for lettign me share!!!
Member: Kevin B.
Location: FL
Date: 10/20/2001
Time: 5:38:41 PM
Hello all, my name is Kevin and i am discovering that I am an alcoholic. I am new at this so please excuse me if the questions I ask appear dumb. I have read over the Blue Book and there is quite a lot to think about. I am having trouble coming to grips with the concept of a higher power. I am not sure right now if I can accept the concept of an all powerful being who is on my side. While I am committed to looking into myself and accepting that I am an alcoholic, I seem to be having a problem with this concept. Any thoughts and or guidance anyone can offer?
Member: RS
Location: midwest
Date: 10/20/2001
Time: 7:29:00 PM
Kevin B., I did struggle with the concept of a higher power that truly cared about me. When I first came around I heard people talking about using the group as a higher power, at least temporarily. Combined, we are a power greater than you, and we really do care. Our lives depend on it.
Member: Scott W
Location: Houston, TX
Date: 10/20/2001
Time: 7:37:54 PM
I understood that God is only concerned with my well being when I realized if I believe God created me, which I do, then how could He have any other consideration for me other than to only want the best for me. He has given me all I need, it is up to me to put those things given me to the best use I can. And I pray for the grace to stand out of my own way so I can see what I need to do.
Kevin, don't consider any question about sobriety as dumb.
Member: carole@12aa.fslife.co.uk
Location:
Date: 10/20/2001
Time: 7:41:49 PM
Hi to you all.When I first came in to AA 2 1/2 years ago I had no thoughts about "GOD" but I did keep my mind and my heart open and gradually came to believe that there is no such thing as coincidence.My HP WORKS IN TRULY AMAZING AND MYSTERIOUS WAYS. I dont always like or understand what goes on in and around my life but I HAVE FAITH THAT IT IS ALL FOR A REASON.I no longer confuse religion with spirituality.I live near the sea in a beautiful part of southern England and if I have any fearful days I only have to go and sit on the cliffs and watch the sea.I am then reminded that there most certainly is a "power greater than myself". STAYING CYBER is fantastic.My only worry is ...will I ever sleep again? In true addict style I find it difficult to browse in moderation! wishing you all love in recovery and "remember the still suffering alcoholic"
Member: Connie C.
Location: Northern California
Date: 10/20/2001
Time: 9:01:56 PM
Kevin B, You do not have to believe in an "All Powerful" higher power, or one who is "on your side." You are free to choose any conception which suits you of a power greater than yourself. Some use the AA group itself. I myself can't work well with the Judeo-Christian God concept. For me, it has connotations of a man in a white beard looking down benignly (or not so benignly) and pulling strings here and there. I follow Buddhist teachings which make no statement yea or nay about whether there is "a God." There are many varieties of spiritual beliefs to choose from, or you can make up your own. Hope this helps.
Member: Susan S.
Location: SAvannah, Ga.
Date: 10/20/2001
Time: 10:40:54 PM
I have a different concept of God now , than when I picked up my third white chip almost 14 months ago. When I truly accepted that my life was completely and utterly unmanageable,Ibeived that a Power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. Accepting that step signified total surrender.Notice that the 12th step states that you will have a spiritual awakening as a result of working the twelve steps of AA. This is where my concept of God comes from. I have a very personal, initimate and individual relationship with my God. AA to me has not just been gaining a relationship with God, but it has given me instructions on the way I should live my life. More and more I beleive the steps are a plan that does not fail you if you follow it. The fact that Bill could conceive of such a plan that has not only survived though decades, remaining applicabl to mordern lives, but spread throughout the world, is proof to me that God had to be involved.
Member: Joe H
Location: PA
Date: 10/20/2001
Time: 11:04:33 PM
Good topic thanks Angela, I read all these commnents and found a lot of food for thought.
I first had to answer the question is God everything or nothing? I vote "everything" and also feel that quiting the drink and exposure to AA and the Staying Cyber boards has sharppened My spiritual life. Of coarse there's always room for improvement!
One comment that comes up often in this discussion about religion vs. spirituality is that folks deny God on the basis of being taught that He is a punishing God, and Catholism takes the lions share of the hits on that remark. I would like to make a little rebuttle to that statement based on my own experience . I went through twelve years of Catholic education and eight of those years were under direction of Nuns. I got slapped around by some of them for infractions, but when honestly examined the circumstances always found myself deserving of the punishment. Yep I went on to be an alcoholic but they certainly did not drive me there. I never looked to blame God for any of my bad choices in life, after all as someone stated earlier here "God gave us free will". Another interesting thing is I've been doing steps 4,5,6,and 7 since the first time I went to the sacrament of reconciliation, and folks that was a long time before the alcohol problem kicked-in, or I ever heard of AA. I would rather go and tell my short comings to someone that I know is not going to tell anyone else or hold it against me personally. The Priest represents Christ and is only concerned with saving My soul(spirit). I can't help but wonder why people say that "they turned there back on a punishing god" and then proceed to punish themselves with booze or drugs. Then they go to AA and some succeed in being very spiritual "holy" folks, basically doing everything that they turned away from. I just don't understand that.
I notice also some who claim to be agnostics or athiests get very threatened if you start to notice Christ like behavior in them. Some of those who find God tend to be more devout then those raised in a particular faith. I guess because it hits them all at once.
I'm sorry it took till this hour the night before this board turns over for me to get ispired to write this, I would love to go on but the topic would change before I post it. Any who have comments on what I wrote would be most welcomed.
I love AA but I love God more!
Member: Von
Location: Ohio
Date: 10/20/2001
Time: 11:33:51 PM
Angela,
Thanks for the topic and your wise, wise comment. I could totally relate. I have nothing to say except that I'm very grateful. God Bless.
Member: raidy m.
Location: a much better place
Date: 10/21/2001
Time: 4:55:32 AM
Hi,alcoholic named raidy,nice to meet you. Higher Power,those oldtimers were not stupid,they knew how I felt,they been where I was,the word GOD would probally sent me running thru the door.They knew that,said Higher Power instead,allowed me enough time to dry up,gave me a chance,allowed it to "happen"for me. Faith?..mine comes through "after" the fact.I am able to get through things without drinking,use to send me running to the drink. "What it use to be like",there is where I can SEE that my God, of my understanding,has worked in my life,today.My faith is grown through hard times,situations that are so bad I can"t see a way through them.Did I get me through that,no way,HE did that for me. Its a simple program,I can not stay sober without my Higher Power,AA, and people like you. Today,I can understand what they mean when they say; "Gratefull Alcoholic":for if I was not an alcoholic,I would not be where I am today;and for that,I am truely gratefull and humbled.
Another Gratefull Alcoholic; raidy m.
Member: Kevin B
Location: FL
Date: 10/21/2001
Time: 7:14:11 AM
Thanks for your thoughts.
Member: Rich R, s-l-o-w-l-y recovering compulsive person
Location: Detroit (richr_srcp@hotmail.com)
Date: 10/21/2001
Time: 9:05:24 AM
Thanks for the topic Angela. God is.
But, what about the struggle part? The fact is that I don't want there to be God. I want ME to be God. I want to be all-powerful, all-knowing, etc. And I know there can't be 2 Gods, there can only be one. And, I am pissed that it can't be me. So, every once in awhile, despite the FACT that God is, I pretend that God isn't and I take over. Guess what happens? Misery. Oh, it's fun initially to be in-control, but it doesn't last very long. Eventually reality comes crashing in to my dream and it is very difficult to admit, but alas I am NOT God. My little stunt didn't work (again). By the way, I continue to pull this little stunt of mine even after 10+ years of abstinence from alcohol! Thanks for the topic, I can't recall anyone ever having put the issue the way you did, very creative.