Member: Mike H
Location: Jackson Michigan
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 10:27:12 AM

Comments

How about "the fear of change"? As we move thru life everything keeps changing. I have always been afraid of what will happen next. It is more comfortable to just exist but in order to grow as a human being I must change also.


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 11:42:57 AM

Comments

Mike,that is paranoia.


Member: Potty Potter
Location: Scotland
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 12:28:59 PM

Comments

Very good topic indeed! I usually fear that which is not good for me not what is good for me, and I think it's instinctual that we fear the Unknown because of it. "To Be, Or Not To Be" as Shakespeare ponders the idea of continuing living or suicide. Despite the optimism that mostly I read in literature and the sharing of others I know in my experience that the past has always been not a very good experience but I keep on hoping that I could change for the better. Like the cliche' that Jim Jones used when he told his people to drink poison, "Those who do not remember the past is condemned to repeat it". And why did those people commit suicide, women and children? If there was a psychiatrist who will diagnosed each and everyone of them I bet they don't have any trace of psychiatric disorders in them, they were normal people for the most part and motivated to live together by Christian Principles. Who am I to say that I am different from them if I had the same conditions? People are defined by the structures they are in and no matter how much facts you give to them people are set in those ways. Yes I hear them a lot in A.A. saying I have a good sobriety because I am have been long in the program but if you have known these people for long you would know that they are just as screwed up with their ego but at least they have changed their drinking buddies to people in AA with the same ego levels. But the same bragging, the same arogance, the same one up one down mentality, the same bullshitting, the same politics. The only difference is that they have realized that they really never did like drinking in the first place. In my case it has always been that people bully, humiliate, annoy and for the most part gang up on me. Why? Because I am defined by the conditions I'm in. Now how to rise up over these conditions is the main question like say, 'How To Swim with the Sharks and not be Eaten by Them' or 'I'm OK, You're OK' or "I'll prove to them that they are wrong' or '10% Inspiration, 90% perspiration'. But the truth is that when I look back at history who were the major revolutionaries that change people's outlook Socrates, Christ, Galileo, Van Gogh, Robespierre, Marx, Nietzsche,they all paid dearly for it, and I think that's how change works, it involves a lot of risk and consequences that one is willing to pay for a cause. We are born because we shall die.


Member: Peter s
Location: Dorsey uk
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 1:47:52 PM

Comments

Around step 5.our fears fall from us.Acceptance is the key to a happy sober life free from fear.Nobodys 100% free from fear but those 12 steps help.


Member: Peter s
Location: Dorsey uk
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 1:48:13 PM

Comments

Around step 5.our fears fall from us.Acceptance is the key to a happy sober life free from fear.Nobodys 100% free from fear but those 12 steps help.


Member: Tihearah A
Location:
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 3:54:35 PM

Comments

Once Iv,e learned that I could no longer drink the fear set in. What was I going to do next.How was I going to live. did I want to live, The answer to those questions had already been answered. I had to come to believe in a higher power,(nothing ealse worked.)Then I had to turn my will and my life over to this power.(I choose to call GOD.)Then continue with the other nine steps, I had to lern to practics the princible behind the steps to the best of my ability one day at a time. I coulnd not do any of this with out my sponsors, who had sponsors to guide me.


Member: Rick
Location: FL
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 3:57:07 PM

Comments

It is all common sense.


Member: Kitty K.
Location: Boston
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 4:09:50 PM

Comments

TOM - RICK Your one-liners are great!!!!!


Member: Charlie Darling
Location: Key West, FL
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 4:12:12 PM

Comments

Hi Family, Charlie Darling a very grateful recovering Alcholic, Change is Good it is just adding another o to God.It is how you handel the change that matters. You can either take it like it is, or try it your way. My way never worked, and now I leave the changes up to my HP, and pray on it, It will all work out in the end. As god doesn't give us any more than we can't handel, also God did not make garbage. I except the good and the bad, as if it wern't for the bad I wouldn't appreciate the Good for that I am very grateful. Thank God and AA for my sobriety today, and all the changes I must go through to be the person I am becoming. Today I can honestly say I like myself. Peace and Love kwduke_1999@yahoo.com I'll keep coming back and yes acceptance is the key. Love you all


Member: scarlett
Location: PA
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 5:56:40 PM

Comments

perhaps mike is justified in his "alleged" paranoia, in which case it isn't paranoia at all. i agree with the common sense aspect. for me, change can be exciting but there have been times when i've been afraid...just not knowing what to expect or if it is for the best. as it is said "let go - let god". that's actually worked for me more often than not.


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 6:25:19 PM

Comments

Potty Potter,beautifully said and so very true.


Member: Jules H.
Location: Iowa
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 6:30:32 PM

Comments

Great topic,"fear of change", today I'm beginning to welcome change because I know that everytime I experience it, I grow a little bit more, it keeps me on the road of sobriety, on that AA beam. Everything I have today is a direct result of staying sober and connected.. I know that GOD has a plan for each and everyone of us, and he's not gonna bring us this far just to dump us! So I say 'bring it on' and wait for the next change to happen, good and bad...... Thanks for keepin me sober another day.....Your friend in the fellowship, Jules


Member: Jeffrey M
Location: Denver, CO
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 8:11:03 PM

Comments

Change has never brought me pain but the resistance to that change and the futile attempt to fight to attempt to control that which I cannot change has brought me more misery and frustration than anything else in my life. When my sponsor told me that many, many years ago I thought he was nuts (which was pretty standard in those days) but it is true. But the reality is that my fear of anything when I get down to the bare bones is just an attempt to control. When I practice, and I use that word for a reason because no one does it perfectly, letting go and just doing the next right thing, my perception changes along with my reality and I can see that all of the energy I use on control and being right is really an attempt to validate my arrogance and my internal belief that I know what is best for me and everyone else. And how often did that work?? My point is that there are twelve small and simple actions that I can willingly take to change my perception and outlook on life. Is that lesson easily learned, no. But everyone I have ever met that got sober (not dry mind you but sober) always told me the same thing, Don't drink and clean house, clean house, clean house. And Polly, the best revenge on the self righteous (and I've met a few over the years) is being true to yourself, and getting and staying sober, not dry but sober. My sopnsor told me to pray for the assholes that told me I'd never make it and after years of half hearted and mumbled whispers that they be as blessed as I, I finally understood that page 83 had it right "As God's people we stand on our feet; we don't crawl before anyone" and that includes other alcoholics. Remenber it is Alcoholics Anonymous not Normals Anonymous. Sometimes I have to love those people from a distance, a long one. Jeffrey M jeffreynmartin@msn.com


Member: mike
Location: mount forest,ont canada
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 8:18:52 PM

Comments

Our fears are freaky at times they come from us.and the highest fear that I had was how people would aceept the change life that I have choosen to follow. If they did't accept it I chould not change it.Acceptance is the key to a happy sober life free from fear.Nobodys 100% free from fear but those 12 steps help.


Member: mike
Location: mount forest,ont canada
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 8:18:57 PM

Comments

Our fears are freaky at times they come from us.and the highest fear that I had was how people would aceept the change life that I have choosen to follow. If they did't accept it I chould not change it.Acceptance is the key to a happy sober life free from fear.Nobodys 100% free from fear but those 12 steps help.


Member: Ron L
Location: Winnipeg. Man. Can.
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 10:17:05 PM

Comments

When I was drinking I found courage in the bottle. I could dance better, talk better, fight better, and I swear I could face anything with a few drinks in me. I just never gave a hoot for my own welfare while drinking, If I skip the part of my story about how fearful I was after I just sobered up and move on to when the promises started to become reality, I can say most of my fears left and faith became my daily companion. Its no big secret how to over come our fears... stay sober one day at a time. Read the big book. Do the steps. Go to meetings. Try to carry this message. And talk to the God of our understanding on a daily base. It worked for me and it will work for you. Now I don't want to sound complaisant, and I don"t want to give the impression that this is easy. cause its not. but the rewards are beyond our wildest expectations, and well worth the effert for what ever the out come turns out to be.


Member: AZbill
Location: az-bill@mindspring.com
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 10:33:50 PM

Comments

Hi. Bill here. Alcoholic from Arizona. This program is all about change. Step Twelve tells us we will have a Spiritual Awakening. It is a result of working the previous Eleven. If you are working the Steps out of the big book then in the second chapter it sends us to Appendix II. Here, the Spiritual Wakening is described. Change is mentioned in one form or another about 11 times in this description. So if we do our work well we will be expecting some changes to occur. Thanks. Love ya Bill


Member: Les
Location: San Diego
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 11:00:51 PM

Comments

The Big Book tells us that, if we are painstaking about the first nine Steps of AA , "Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us. ... We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves." (Alcoholics Anonymous. pg. 84). "It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels." (Ibid pg. 85) What fear could I possibly have if I truly believe that, "God will do for me what I cannot do for myself?" What change could damage me that I need fear change if God is taking care of things that I cannot handle? God will go before me to make the crooked places straight. Yet when I rest on my laurels, and I've got plenty of laurels to rest upon, fear raises its ugly head and increases until I remember to get off my fat laurels and do the necessary things to maintain a spiritual condition and remember that, in God's hands, as I understand God's hands, I need fear nothing including future change or change occurring now. Who ever said during W.W.II that, "We have nothing to fear except fear itself," (perhaps, it was Winston Churchill) Hit the nail precisely on the head.


Member: Thaddeus R
Location: Atlanta
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 11:12:17 PM

Comments

I welcome change today. There is nothing that I can do to stop it or prevent it. I look at it as life on life terms. The Big Book tell us that acceptance is the answer to all of my problems today. God does for me what I do not do for myself. I have faith in my Higher Power and it is Him that gives me strength to face life challenges. Through Him I can face life trails and tribulations. A positive attitude is more important than facts. I try to take advantage of change and build on it. God is the same today, yesterday and forever, everything else changes. I accept it and keep moving.


Member: Tom M
Location: SC
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 11:17:38 PM

Comments

Fear of Change has kept me drunk for the past 12 years. I've been afraid of what lies on the other side, the sober side. I've been afraid of losing my 'friends' I've been afraid of what they would say. I've finally decided to worry about myself rather than my 'friends' opinions. I use the term 'friend' loosely because with most, it's usually no alcohol, no friends. It's only been 9n days now. But it feels nice to wake-up with a clear head. Each passing day of sobriety brings more and more sneers from the 'old gang' It's exactly what I was afraid of. But now I'm in this for me first and foremost. If they have a problem with my sobriety, then they're not truly my friends. They are more than welcome to join me if they wish. I'd do everything in my power to help them. Well, I've babbled enough. Have at it. TOM, 9 Days and counting.


Member: Robin W
Location: Georgetown, SC
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 11:29:37 PM

Comments

Fear....that awful for letter word, that evil corroding thread that seems to run through my every seam..Fear of failure, Fear of Success, Fear of change, Fear of staying the same, should they not at least cancel one another out at some point so I can just be nuetral??? I have found only this for myself...Faith & Fear can not co-exist, niether can a lie stand in the presence of truth...even the darkest room is lit with a small candle so that there is now light!!! So I try a little truthfulness when I am having problems with dishonesty...and I take that leap of faith (FAITH, Father,All, Is In, Thy, Hands) Yes I have to take that leap of faith and trust that the net will be there...and so far God had never let me down...Most of my fears always boil down to this, Fear I won't get what I want or Fear I will lose something that I already have...When I am willing to trust and Believe that there is a GOD, and It is not me, and that This God's wants better for me than I even want for myself! I am able to let Go, Let God... My hope is only as strong as my ability to trust, and my faith is only as strong my willingness to beleive enough to take action, when I take action, I get results and my faith builds, when I rely on myself I am filled with Fear because I was a miserable failure before I got here and with out God's help I will remain so today...even though I am separated from Alcohol. Life is an exciting adventure today, I am not ever totally unafraid, with God's help I can trust today...that all I must do- is the best I can, and He does the rest...With a God so Good, and so Loving and so Powerful that He turned the worse things in my life to be something good to help others--like my alcoholism, I don't have much to Fear except Fear it'self. Love Ya All, Robin


Member: Ninja Turtle
Location: Victoria, B.C.
Date: 10/5/2003
Time: 11:43:48 PM

Comments

Excellent topic, Mike. Real change is so very rare in A.A. We had a member die last week because he wouldn't make the real change necessary. He had gone to one of the premier substance abuse facilities for his drinking and then came to meetings and told us all about how great things were. He never drank again, but he never was without a cigarette in his mouth. Regretfully, his addiction to nicotine killed him. He refused to recognize that he needed to make a true change in his life. He merely changed his drug of choice from alcohol to tobacco. Unfortunately, that is all too common in A.A. People come in and quit drinking and then die from smoking. Same result, different drug. - - - I liked your post Potty Potter. You are so right. So many in A.A. think that just because they have been going to A.A. for some time and haven't drank, then that's all the change that is required. What a terrible and deadly misonception.


Member: Pappy
Location: Nevada
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 2:02:36 AM

Comments

Change is inevitable,it never stops for anyone or anything.Nature is not the territory but its one good roadmap for life as well as comming to terms with an HP. When looking at acceptance there is a part that seems to be overlooked and it is included in the sernity prayer. This is readjustment, or change the things we can. There's that word change lol.We "experience" life, one experience following the other and in a way have the ability to direct these experiences. Just like getting and staying sober.Once we give up control we gain control, but now with a clear head and the govenor being wisdom something I could seldom find with a snoot full.Drunk or sober I've always welcomed change. But I now enjoy it. Thank You


Member: Chris T
Location: San Francisco
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 3:27:00 AM

Comments

My name is Chris and I am an alcoholic. My experience is change is the one thing I must do to stay sober. As it says in step 11, praying only for the knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry it out. Let me think, did I ever pray for that (or pray at all for that matter) while I was still drinking? When I start my day by asking for knowledge of His will for me, that is a significant change. And how about the power to carry out His will for me. That too is a change, to have the power to do what is best for me. Too have progress I must be willing to change, to go to any length. I didn't know how to live. I am grateful.


Member: Richard W
Location: MD
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 6:02:18 AM

Comments


Member: Richard W
Location: MD
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 6:03:50 AM

Comments

"the fear of change" or is is fear of the consequences of change ... always the human frailty is the anxiety associated with the uncertain, the unknown ... ergo ... the importance of faith, and a solid foundation of purpose.


Member: Dawn
Location: NY
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 10:49:50 AM

Comments

FEAR....is an emotion. I drank to hide my emotions or control them. Today I feel. Funny that this topic came up. I saw a movie last night that touched my heart I cried...Under the Tuscan Sun...its all about coming to a crossroad and putting the fear aside and just taking a leap. When I came into the program I had no hope..I feared everything and everyone but I wanted to change. I had no fear of real change I wanted it because I hated the way I felt about myself and about life in general. Never did I expect to feel the way I do today. around six months in the program I began to feel emotions and I feared them because I was like up and down and all over the place and I didnt understand them. People in this program say...the good news is you get your feelings back and the bad news is you get your feelings back....at first I aggreed and I have been trying to fight a certain feeling for a while now and no matter what I do it grows stronger. I never expected to feel how I do today. I never expected to like a person and respect them at the same time adn I feared that. I would look for the bad and found goodness, I gave it to God and it came back to me, I prayed about it...finally I just subcommed to it..and I am grateful for the good feeling I have. I am grateful that I met someone who could have touched my heart the way it was touched and even if the feeling is one sided I feel alive, I feel good and I feel peace. People come into our lives for a reason a season or a lifetime and we never know what will transpire but fearing a feeling is not living..its old behavior...trying to control a Gift of goodness God bestowed upon us humans. If he wanted to create humans with no emotions he would have created Robots. TODAY THE ONLY FEAR I HAVE IS A HEALTHY FEAR of this Disease...where it took me in life...the real destroyer...was not extremeties but the internal Soul. It destroyed me physically, spiritually and emotionally...so today I can say..I am alive...living as I should..not perfectly but with emotions..good and bad...happy and sad...its all about living as God intended us to live. GOD BLESS YOU AND KEEP YOU ALL SOBER AND SAFE TODAY........ Thanks!!


Member: Donna H
Location: Kansas
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 11:33:37 AM

Comments

Fear of change can be scary at times. It just depends on where I am at spiritually and with my attitude on how I accept and deal with it. It is through change that I am able to learn and grow from. Lately mine have been an exciting adventure and a big learning experience that I am glad I did. Had I been drinking I never would have been able to have had this experience. I am grateful today.


Member: lastgasper
Location: surfinthru
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 1:45:12 PM

Comments

Tom M...right on brother. why would your TRUE friends not be pleased for you and supportive of your attempting to get your shit together? could be you threaten them...after all theyre drinkin n druggin just like you did...but they dont yet have the guts to look at themselves and take responsability for theyre behavior. be true to yourself...youll get to know some real friends, people who arnt so judgemental and wish for nothing more than to see you just not hurt anymore and experience a little peace and calm in your life. you have my respect brother...keep on keepin on.


Member: someone
Location: confused
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 2:26:44 PM

Comments

How do you combat fear of love in sobriety?


Member: Larry R.
Location: Spokane,WA
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 2:30:57 PM

Comments

Change is scary, and I am like everyoneelse it sounds like in taking it one day at a time. To trust that things will work out. I've never been able to do this well. I'm a worrier, I spend so much time worrying that sometimes I just "lock-up" and can't do anything it seems. Being sober, and talking with AA members has helped me realize to have trust, and work one day at a time! Thank you.


Member: Sunshine
Location: PA
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 3:47:27 PM

Comments

Someone Confused, I hope this is fear of love for yourself? How much time do you have?


Member: Someone
Location: Confused
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 4:14:37 PM

Comments

Yes, I have love for myself and have three months shy of a year and have not acted on my feelings. But I am confused how you can combate love for another person when you don't even know them intimately. I am trying to sort out what I feel but I am fearful of loving another person. I am sticking to the 1 year suggestion but it is hard to see someone all the time and interact with them and not lock up or not feel or not understand what i am feeling even.


Member: TOMM M
Location: SC
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 5:28:16 PM

Comments

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference." Amen Working on 10 days of sobriety, THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT


Member: Connie S.
Location: Nashville, TN
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 5:29:12 PM

Comments

Hi Ya'll, my name is Connie and I am a grateful, recovering alcoholic. Fear Knocked, Faith Answered. Nobody could help me but God. Fear is something that I used to live with everyday. Today, I live a new way of life. When I put the bottle down alot of fears automatically went away. Then in AA I learned that I needed to turn my life over to God and just be willing to do His will. Since honestly doing that, the obsession to drink is gone and I do not have have fear like I used to. God is doing for me, because I trust Him and try to live the way He designed me to, in service to others. It's hard to have fear when you know you're doing right and God is on your side.


Member: Connie S.
Location: Nashville, TN
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 5:29:17 PM

Comments

Hi Ya'll, my name is Connie and I am a grateful, recovering alcoholic. Fear Knocked, Faith Answered. Nobody could help me but God. Fear is something that I used to live with everyday. Today, I live a new way of life. When I put the bottle down alot of fears automatically went away. Then in AA I learned that I needed to turn my life over to God and just be willing to do His will. Since honestly doing that, the obsession to drink is gone and I do not have have fear like I used to. God is doing for me, because I trust Him and try to live the way He designed me to, in service to others. It's hard to have fear when you know you're doing right and God is on your side.


Member: Roy G
Location: Calgary,Canada
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 5:55:16 PM

Comments

Fear of change is the perfect topic for me today.It must be my higher power working for me even though I try hard to ignore the fact that I have one.I am in treatment at this time and this morning five new people came into our group.Giving in to my old fears,I withdrew and didn't contribute much to the conversation.As soon as I started reading the posted messages,I knew where to start looking for answers.Its time for me to do some real work on the steps and let GOD(as I understand him)take care of the things I can't change.Tom,I understand how you feel,the only friends that are worth having are the ones that will support your efforts to stay sober.The others you can only pray for,that they will in time realize the insanity they are living through and get help.Thank God and all of you out there for another sober(not dry)24


Member: FEARLESS ONE
Location:
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 6:13:17 PM

Comments

WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR BUT FEAR ITSELF AND I DONT EVEN FEAR THAT.


Member: angie
Location: california
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 6:50:31 PM

Comments

fear od change ..... God i hate change ... i'll dig my claws into the familiar ... even the familiar brings me pain ... even if the familiar is something that brings misery .... i fear change so much .... i am learning to give it to God .... i live and have been living in a recovery home for the past year and thigns are constantly changing there... for instances where you live ... i used to go through all this agony inside becausei didnt want to move ... feared the new .... it seems easier when i can just learn to accept it ... i fear change so much that i have been clinging to a sick relationship..... very very sick .... feared having to let go ... feared not feeling like i belonged a part of that relationship anymore, feared not finding someone else later in life, feared being ALONE ... although he has been in jail the past year .... though i always fear change ... change has never been more then i could handle ... and i usually learn the most from walking through my fears ....


Member: Mam Pur
Location: Homeless
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 7:11:28 PM

Comments

Is the topic fear in general or just fear of change? As I'm reading I can't help but notice that everybody's focused on the positive side. Perhaps that's healthy but as for me that's not very realistic. I have been in situations where I have been the subject of descrimination, hostile aggressiveness, mockery, etc. and you cannot help but be afraid when you see these people and how they treat people of difference and class. And what is painful to see is the Hypocrisy that dominates these people. It's like seeing what most of you say about the positive side but in practice I don't know how many are really positive in dealing with their prejudices and descriminations. And when you are in the midst of this Hypocrisy you can't help but feel fearful. Once in a meeting some 3 young big fellers who came from some high class neighborhood used to give me a hard time until the day I face my fear with them and it became physical. But do you think that the people in that group even for a small fraction thought that perhaps those bullies might have been the problem? No, why? because they were with their own class and kind of people. I was the outsider therefore no matter what they say or do, Im the one at fault. And to say that, "Why don't you go to other groups?" Oh so you mean to say that their level of sobriety and spirituality is different from others? And I don't have that ability to be an insider, that's why I turned to alcohol in the first place! People judge me as a dork, a bum- survivor, a mongoloid, cave man, outlaw, mongkey, dog, hustler, stupid, asshole, fag,know-it-all, psycho, etc. and when you are into that standing in the community it's very scary. And no matter what positive outlook you try to be it's just that that is the reality. Most of the dominant people are very evil creatures and the others just follow their lead of hypocrisy. They are the guys who say you get what's coming to you because you deserve it but when things comes around to us then we have every right to satisfy our retribution because we are infallible we are the good guys, we are the rightful judge. And I bet you if you conduct a survey in statistics about how many of the population would agree that they have this attitude you won't find any, even with us alcoholics. Tell me if you have this kind of attitude in all honesty,and I will congratulate you as the first to overcome your fear of being evil and not be a hypocrite. Help me because my sobriety is all screwed up. Thanks.


Member: Maverick
Location: in the truth
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 7:25:35 PM

Comments

"che 'l buon mondo jeo...." "in pro del mondo che mal vive...." As anyone who's ever read the works of Dante and especially his "Comedies" can easily discern, there's an utter inescapable truth to life, and hence death. While I was going to post it on the discussion page, it seemed a little more aptly applied here for a number of reasons.... Anytime this topic comes up and the standard rhetoric is applied about how change is inevitable and the program is all about change, yada, yada, yada, it makes me wonder. I wonder if I'm the only one who truly sees what I see or if I'm just totally nuts as many of you here so unjustly suggest.... In philosphia perennis it's often said, "hora novissa, tempora pessima sunt," and it never seems to fail in it's truth. You know I must at least give ole billydubylaboy some credit for displaying this knowledge in the 12&12 in his view of the 11th step as he makes the almost precise claim of Dante. Is it true that the more things change, the more they stay the same? It's clearly true of the things that are of true importance: namely God, grace, sin, justice, love, and human nature. Even as narrow-minded and shallow as Bill was he managed to see these as unquestionable truths, yet missed out on one key point that even the German poet who penned the Serenity prayer missed out on as well.... "Uno amoroso uso di sapienza," or it is neither wisdom, nor philoshophy at all, but the precise opposite. Further if the pursuit of knowledge and truth is but a mere intellectual search and not a pilgramage of the entire being, loving heart as well as knowing mind, as well as the actual working of the virtues as well, then of what good is it? None at all except to be used as evil and hence lead others into the infamous "inferno!!!!" The path of AA is indeed on the ultimate "slippery slope" despite what those here who sign it's praises so loudly and exclaim to be fact. There is only hope for the ultimate survival of far more than some simple little ideal of helping other alkies at stake, and it is of no help at all to lead them astray as Dante was unjustly accused of, as am I here.... So for whoever the anon, but regular, poster was that quipped they wanted to "show me love and tolerance," you need to get a grip on reality my friend. You are the one in need of help as I know where my wisdom lie, apparently you are still unknowing. I shall pray for you as I do the whole of not only AA, but all those lost in the realm in the insidious evil that lurks throughout the world at present....


Member: bridget e
Location: nj
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 7:26:31 PM

Comments

I'm new to the online venue, new to a NJ community, new to a job here....all change...and all in my first year of sobriety. But honestly, that's been the constant in my life. There's a level of fear that I work well in. That is where I have an element of control at the outcome. On the otherhand, I got word last evening that a DUI I got a year ago may now be prosecuted...a state away...a lifetime away. Now there's change I have no control over. IT IS SCARY!


Member: bridget e
Location: nj
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 8:13:55 PM

Comments

I'm new to the online venue, new to a NJ community, new to a job here....all change...and all in my first year of sobriety. But honestly, that's been the constant in my life. There's a level of fear that I work well in. That is where I have an element of control at the outcome. On the otherhand, I got word last evening that a DUI I got a year ago may now be prosecuted...a state away...a lifetime away. Now there's change I have no control over. IT IS SCARY! The more I use the "courage to change the things I can" the more I have "the wisdom to know the difference".


Member: Sunshine
Location: PA
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 8:14:05 PM

Comments

Someone Confused write to me via email pcjean@comcast.net. I don't think this is the place to discuss this topic.


Member: SuzyQ
Location: Ct.
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 8:21:09 PM

Comments

When I was in daily hand to hand combat at life,I was miserable.Now,I just let most things flow right around me.I used to try to do the same things and get different results.Working the steps has given me what I needed. Nothing changes if nothing changes. peace and serenity SuzyQ


Member: Sunshine
Location: PA
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 8:24:17 PM

Comments

Bridget E, WELCOME. Obviously from above you can see that I am in PA. Whenever your hearing is, when you walk in there, remember your HP is sitting right next to you at all times either way it goes. I'll be praying for you. Unfortunately, we have to clean up the wreckage of our past and it is scary. But remember, we're not alone anymore. Also, as you get to know people in your new environment, maybe another AA person can go with you for support. Feel free to email me and if you feel comfortable, I'll give you my phone # and we can talk. pcjean@comcast.net


Member: Dale W
Location: W.Y.
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 8:52:47 PM

Comments

Hi I'm Dale alcoholic. Nothing changes if nothing changes. About the time fear sets in is when I'm not getting what I want or loosing what I have. So trusting your higher power, the steps, and my sponsors directions which always come from the B.B. and doing the next right thing no matter how painful my fears seem to slip away. Thanks.


Member: Gloria L.
Location: Evanston, IL
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 8:58:36 PM

Comments

Change is constant. When I remember to say God's will and not mine be done, any fear I have subsides at once. Everyday I get in the back seat and let God do the driving. Things seem to go so much better when I'm not in charge. God bless!


Member: Sunshine
Location: PA
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 10:09:55 PM

Comments

Hi Mam Pur-Homeless, WOW! First Things First! Under any and all conditions we do not pick up that first drink! Unfortunately, some people are/can be very mean. I'm sorry you have experienced what you have. I know as a child I experienced a lot of hurt from family. I was "a dork, a bum-survivor, a mongoloid, cave girl, outlaw, mongkey, dog, hustler, stupid, asshole, fag,know-it-all, psycho, etc. and when you are into that standing in the family it's very scary." thank you for verbalizing that for me. I can feel your pain. Yet, on the other hand I too have been on the other side of the fence at times. If someone is "different", I'm usually afraid, and I react by an insult or distancing myself in some way. Either way it's fear. They fear you and you fear them. You are here to maintain sobriety. Don't allow anyone to dictate your sobriety and make it so-dry-ety. You make sure you are doing what your HP would expect you to do. The next RIGHT thing. Swollow your pride and go to another meeting. Or, stay and pray for each and every one of them.. they need it.. and so do you. You are hurt. All we really want is to be a part of. Sometimes it just doesn't work out that way when & where we want it to. You have got to have someone. The clicks in my area I never fit into. I orinally wanted to and tried, but they didn't accept me and I eventually moved on to different meetings. I have to travel a little further, but so what. This is my life and I only get one chance at it. It is not a dress rehearsal. So get all dressed up honey and go out there with your head up in the air. F. THEM. Work the AA program to the best that you can. Go volunteer somewhere that needs you. Soup kitchens, offer your services at a childrens home, American Red Cross. Make your life usefull. Make yourself who your HP wants you to be. Hang in there.


Member: o
Location:
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 10:20:39 PM

Comments

Please read Mam Pur: Homeless Member: Dave Location: SHIPWRECKED Date: October 06, 2003 Time: 09:06 PM Comments A man is the only surviver of a shipwreck and he finds himself all alone stranded on a deserted island.The lonliness is terrible and he cries out to God," Why me,Why couldn't I have died with the rest of my crew?"Well he desides after some time he is going to have to make some sort of life for himself so he finds some wood and things that had washed up on shore and he makes himself a shelter and a fire to keep warm and he is quite proud of his new home....One day he goes off hunting and foraging to replentish his food supplies and wile he's gone his home burns to the ground.There is nothing left but ashes.He is devistated and broken."Oh God no,I can't take any more,I give up",and he cries and cries all night long. The next morning much to his surprise he sees a ship sailing right at him..... He is rescued...Once on board the ship he is so happy and thankfull and he asks the captian,"How did you know I was here?"and the captian says,"I saw your signal fire."...Although we may not understand our pain and suffering now,it may be instumental in our future happiness. Hope Dave doesn't mind me coping this over? I'll stay anonymouns just in case. But if anything is said, it won't happen again.


Member: TOM M
Location: SC
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 11:21:46 PM

Comments

Hello, made it to my first meeting tonight. I gave myself a thousand reasons not to actually go in the building. It bacically boiled down to a fear of the unknown. None were good enough to stop me though. So I entered and heard my story basically told over and over again. I needed the meeting more than I realized. I was overwhelmed with emotion. The people were great. They welcomed me with open arms. I will be back tomorrow. Grateful for another 24 hours. THANKS


Member: ROTFLMAO AT THE MAV
Location:
Date: 10/6/2003
Time: 11:48:02 PM

Comments

Mav,just how many personas do you take on in a days time?You idiot.


Member: Terry
Location: uk
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 4:46:36 AM

Comments

If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you always got. When I first heard that, some 11 years ago, I was about 6 months into attending AA , still drinking but pretending I wasn't. I couldn't get that phrase out of my head, beating myself up at the fear of the unknown, ie. not drinking. I wasn't scared of change, I went to AA to change, I wanted to change, but in my insanity I thought I would change into some one I recognised. I sat and listened to all these people sharing how much their lives had changed, and the common theme for many was different not better. Didn't realise that better came later. Anyway I took the decision to stop drinking, and most people thought I had relapsed. ( for you Americans, thats irony ). Well almost imediately things got different, and slowly over the years got better. Changing from drunk to sober took a matter of days, my journey through the degrees of wellness took far longer. My biggest change and by definition my biggest fear was when I decided that at 8 years from my last drink and a complete overhaul of my life , that going to meetings 3 times a week and listening to people tell me that I was still in the grip of a powerful and baffling disease, was taking its toll. I didn't feel ill, yet all I heard was AA members telling me without the programme I was lost. For me that was the scariest thing of all. I didn't free myself from the yolk of alcohol dependency to encumber myself with another. I had been a model AA acolyte, had a sponser worked the steps, did all the right things, and do you know what? it worked.So I faced the biggest fear I had,I took responsibity for my own life, my own decisions and trusted that the wealth of knowledge and experience I had gained as an AA member would hold good. Now some 3 nearly 4 years later, I still do not drink, as a human being I have progressed in previously unimaginable ways, freed from the constraints of this perceived illness. I remain full of gratitude for what AA gave me and continues to give me, change has become something to be embraced not feared, but most of all ..... I stopped doing what I'd always done, and started getting what I'd never had.


Member: Terry
Location: uk
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 4:47:08 AM

Comments

If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you always got. When I first heard that, some 11 years ago, I was about 6 months into attending AA , still drinking but pretending I wasn't. I couldn't get that phrase out of my head, beating myself up at the fear of the unknown, ie. not drinking. I wasn't scared of change, I went to AA to change, I wanted to change, but in my insanity I thought I would change into some one I recognised. I sat and listened to all these people sharing how much their lives had changed, and the common theme for many was different not better. Didn't realise that better came later. Anyway I took the decision to stop drinking, and most people thought I had relapsed. ( for you Americans, thats irony ). Well almost imediately things got different, and slowly over the years got better. Changing from drunk to sober took a matter of days, my journey through the degrees of wellness took far longer. My biggest change and by definition my biggest fear was when I decided that at 8 years from my last drink and a complete overhaul of my life , that going to meetings 3 times a week and listening to people tell me that I was still in the grip of a powerful and baffling disease, was taking its toll. I didn't feel ill, yet all I heard was AA members telling me without the programme I was lost. For me that was the scariest thing of all. I didn't free myself from the yolk of alcohol dependency to encumber myself with another. I had been a model AA acolyte, had a sponser worked the steps, did all the right things, and do you know what? it worked.So I faced the biggest fear I had,I took responsibity for my own life, my own decisions and trusted that the wealth of knowledge and experience I had gained as an AA member would hold good. Now some 3 nearly 4 years later, I still do not drink, as a human being I have progressed in previously unimaginable ways, freed from the constraints of this perceived illness. I remain full of gratitude for what AA gave me and continues to give me, change has become something to be embraced not feared, but most of all ..... I stopped doing what I'd always done, and started getting what I'd never had.


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 7:09:26 AM

Comments

Terry,yes exactly,if you stop choosing to drink,you will stop becoming intoxicated.And in time life will take on a whole new meaning and good things will happen.A person does not become a drunk overnight it takes time.Likewise regaining a healthy life takes time.AA is a good kickstarter in the right direction for a person who wants to live a life without choosing to consume alcohol.But hey folks people are not doomed if they graduate from the program.Actually graduating from the program should be encouraged and be used as an incentive to a better life.The program should not be held up as something that will fail if you stop attending meetings.If everyone that ever walked through the doors of AA hung around forever til their dieing day then meetings would be held in stadiums and arenas across the country instead the meetings are still 10 to 50 in attendence in most cases.To make an assertion that one is doomed without a lifetime of AA meetings is ridiculous and absurd.Sure there are probably a few that relapse if you will at a high even while in AA and will always need a crutch to lean on.Some will choose to drink til they die,but a vast majority of people move and lead productive and full lives without alcohol and yes without meetings.GO TO MEETINGS IF YOU NEED TO,DONT GO IF YOU DONT NEED TO.If the program works,then work it and get well,if you have to work it for life and keep rehashing the past and keep hearing the same old stories then maybe it is not working for you.In that case try something else.


Member: Sunshine
Location: PA
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 7:38:21 AM

Comments

Tom, what about the new people that come in. Someone was there when you came around to introduce you to the people, program & other meetings.. I'm assuming. They need direction and they need that direction from someone like you that has been around awhile. New people need to see that people do/can make it. No, we can't make AA our lives. When we maintain sobriety, we have to stick around to pass it on to the new person that needs direction. We balance our new life and our responsibility to be there to offer someone what was freely given to us.


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 8:06:03 AM

Comments

Sunshine,if I stayed in the program all these years and helped so many.Then it is the ones who I helped when they needed help to do their fair share and take the reins and do their service work.I cannot and will not remain in the meeting halls til my last dieing breath.If it worked that way then again I say meetings would be held in stadiums and arenas across the country and no other events would be held in those places except 12 step meetings of all kinds.It is not my desire or final destination in life to preside over meetings on an ongoing basis.I got what I received and I gave back tenfold over and I feel good about that.I am posting here to let everyone know that AA works and when you get it,help others and give back,but come on a lifetime of helping is not healthy to a recovered individual who has overcome and given back what he has given 10 fold over.I think now perhaps I will go play a round of golf and relax.


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 8:17:10 AM

Comments

typo,sorry, given back what he has received tenfold over.


Member: Terry
Location: uk
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 8:19:29 AM

Comments

Sunshine, Thankyou for your post, although I must take issue with the last sentence. Step 12 is about carrying the message not attendence at meetings.There are many ways to do that not least by participating in forums such as these. I am fortunate that my profession allows me to carry the message in a way that is both comfortable and more importntly safe for my own recovery.A situation that I felt was becomming more dificult to attain in meetings. The overiding message must surely be that recovery is possible, in fact that is something we are promised.It is not dependent on attending meetings ad infernitum and I believe it is a message that is being diluted if not ignored by those who would attach religeous infalabilty to what is the word of man.


Member: Terry
Location: uk
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 8:19:40 AM

Comments

Sunshine, Thankyou for your post, although I must take issue with the last sentence. Step 12 is about carrying the message not attendence at meetings.There are many ways to do that not least by participating in forums such as these. I am fortunate that my profession allows me to carry the message in a way that is both comfortable and more importntly safe for my own recovery.A situation that I felt was becomming more dificult to attain in meetings. The overiding message must surely be that recovery is possible, in fact that is something we are promised.It is not dependent on attending meetings ad infernitum and I believe it is a message that is being diluted if not ignored by those who would attach religeous infalabilty to what is the word of man.


Member: Sunshine
Location: PA
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 8:33:06 AM

Comments

Enjoy. I hope you have a good game. You're here and still helping others and that's good enough. From what I'm getting from you also, is that if someone reached out to you for help, you'd be there. And, should you ever need the rooms again, they are there for you. Hopefully, it would be because of the head and not picking up a drink. Thanks for your messages. Looks like a beautiful, sunny (66)day here. Hope the same where you are.


Member: Kelly M
Location: NH
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 9:05:18 AM

Comments

Wow, Well, I'll be buffooned by a buffalo! Not {Today}. Pretty sneaky Tom Turkey,... Terry = Tom. ((Sunshine)) You have yourself a great day and your right about helping another drunk. That is true 12th step work. It is a very sick world in your head when you have to (try) to convince others with deceit. Kind of scary! BTW TOM, IT IS OK TO SEEK OUTSIDE HELP IN AA. Today I am a sober by the grace of God and AA and I hope I will still be in the halls (((working the program of AA)))... when I pass from this life. If you can't help another alcoholic don't hurt one, comes to mind as well as, beat it loser! I have this powerful urge to go to a meeting now and I think I will just do that. Serenity is too precious to lose over such sad insanity. Peace and GodBless the still sick and suffering alcoholic and Godspeed to the rest on the journey. Kelly :)


Member: Just an opinion
Location:
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 10:16:38 AM

Comments

Tom and Terry, it's a shame your experience in AA didn't teach you about balance. If I am still an all-or-nothing person I still have growing up to do. I wonder why, on a page devoted to Early Sobriety, you would try to put a shelf life on people's time in AA? That, to me, seems smug and self-righteous, and maybe even cruel. Let people find their own way. You both seem to be accusing people of trading one dependence for another - a person in early sobriety doesn't want to fall from one hole into another. Participation in AA freed me of the need to practice any sort of dependence. I think you can trust people to find the way that suits them best; that doesn't have to be my way, or your way. You both seem very controlling to me, and with a big axe to grind. I think that this is a really bad place to grind it. I think newcomers should be supported, not criticized before they've even begun.


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 10:26:11 AM

Comments

Kelly,sorry but your assumptions are wrong,that is quite normal and acceptable for newbies such as yourself.Go ahead and pat yourself on the back til you feel better.Kelly seek help wherever you can to get better.I got better with AA and now am off to the rest of my life without alcohol and yes without meetings.Yes it is possible to be you again without the booze and meetings.I am proof of that and so are millions of others. Sunshine,yes I would help someone in need of help in a heartbeat.I also know that the rooms of AA will always be there and a chair is always empty for anyone who needs it.I can for sure say that I will not be filling a seat again in my lifetime.After so many years in the rooms I have heard it all and shared it all.Once I worked the steps and programs and identified all of the problem areas of my life and corrected them I am now as far as I could possibly get with the help of AA.The last 12 years that I was in the program was just going through the motions as nothing was ever attained in the last 12 years of my attending meeting,but the years before that were miraculous.


Member: Terry
Location: UK
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 10:33:58 AM

Comments

I think this is the discussion room. not the one dedicated to early recovery. My understanding is the topic for the week is change and therefore my opinion honed from years of AA recovery is as valid as any other. I have no axe to grind, I comment on nobodies recovery but my own. But for AA it is possible I would not be here. I cannot say for certain because AA worked for me and I tried no other way. This programme is a bridge to normal living and having crossed that bridge I have no intention of returning.I do not drink today through fear, but because I don't want to go to any more meetings.As for being a loser, you are entitled to your opinion, but more emphasis on your own recovery may be beneficial.


Member: Saks Panne
Location: MidTown Manhattan
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 12:40:07 PM

Comments

Hello my name is Saks Panne and I'm a grateful recovering alcoholic, it's my frist time here, thank you. I could identify with some of what I have been reading. Fear of change, yes and the cliche of what I heard from the famous anonymous old timer Clancy of L.A. (or was it from his sponsor?) "If I keep doing what I have been doing, I keep getting what I have been getting". Then the situation of Mam Pur and his Inferno, the Maverick was on the philosophical side and I like it more than Sunshine's simple Christian good sense. I think that even if we have stopped drinking basically we are the same people, despite the steps we taken in the program. I guess because we are ruled by Karma, I know a lot of people will say that he is the Master of his Feet (Fate) and the Captain of his sole, I mean soul by William Blake, but the truth is we are powerless over our destinies and our character. I could see the wisdom of adversities for transcendence, a very novel idea, but all along it is actually pain, suffering, and anguish. I could learn from the winners and the greatest of them all is Genghis Khan, when he was asked by his high priest, "What do you think is the highest Truth worth pursuing in this lifetime?" his answer was "To slay your enemies and to make their women as blankets at night", which I'm afraid is the reality of the world now and as before. Perhaps not literally but by all means psychologically. All these movies and literature that we loved isn't this always have been the plot? Isn't this what the richest and most powerful countries in the world has been doing to the weaker ones in history? I agree with the Mave what the moralizers in AA does is to create a world of illusions of goodness triumphs against evil, but it's all Hypocrisy, for nobody would like to think of themselves as evil, but good, Evil I was taught in Logic always guises itself as good thats why people do it in the first place. Now this is my change to accept this truth which is very scary for reality has always been scary without the garments and coverings that we put on. This is the curse of man from having the wisdom of knowing what is good and evil and for that we die. We are all scared of death the inevitable thats why we fool ourselves of the goodness of life. and again evil always guises itself as good.


Member: carolyn
Location:
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 3:42:34 PM

Comments

my fear of change is that my spouse is not going to enjoy being around a sober wife and then i will have to make some big decisions, if i start to drink again he will have the control over a weak human, if i have to make great changes i am afraid the first will be to leave or not to leave but for today I am sober and greatful


Member: Jessica
Location:
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 4:56:24 PM

Comments

Carolyn,dont be a nagger and he will love you just the same.Keep the BB to yourself or he will become disgruntled for sure.


Member: carolyn
Location:
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 5:28:43 PM

Comments

BB?


Member: Jessica
Location:
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 5:33:45 PM

Comments

Yep,BB,the dreaded big book of bullcrap.


Member: d. nicole shandley
Location:
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 5:51:35 PM

Comments

hello to my fellow alcaholics. ive spent the last 20 min reading everyones input on change and sobriety, 1 am 22 years old and just left everyone and every thing i have ever known in my whole life. i moved from a big city in southern cali, to the middle of a country state smaall ass town where every one knows every ones buisness. talk about change! i also left a three year unhealthy relationship, and have a big fear of being alone. i have never been without a boyfriend or friends,since i was 15.this change of lifestyle and sobriety is a big change compared to what i have always known as life on the streets. its really weird to live life on lifes terms, you know? my reality is things like i know how to con people out of money, but i have no idea how to cook. or keep a job aand be responsible for my actions and self. anyways changing for the better is a blessing!


Member: travis b
Location: world
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 6:07:47 PM

Comments

my first time here and it was the exact topic i needed to hear about. funny how that always happens....


Member: uh huh
Location:
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 7:38:51 PM

Comments

Yeah right Travis.


Member: Pat G
Location: New Jersey
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 9:41:56 PM

Comments

As Arizona Bill said this program is all about change as the result of a doing the steps and having a spiritual awakening. Since the old way of life wasn't working there should be no fear because when your will and life are under the care and direction of God as you understand him life does get better. And God does things differently than you do so embrace change and give yourself a break - you deserve the happiness, freedom and joy ahead. Leaving misery and slavery to King Alcohol is nothing to be scared of rather something to be very very grateful for.


Member: give me a break
Location:
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 9:46:03 PM

Comments

grateful and hp my ass,fictional characters for sure


Member: give me a break
Location:
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 9:46:17 PM

Comments

grateful and hp my ass,fictional characters for sure


Member: Kelly M
Location: NH
Date: 10/7/2003
Time: 10:57:04 PM

Comments

Hi All, Kelly here and still an alcoholic. I have double digit sobriety... 24 hours, Today! Thanks for the topic Mike. Fear of change is true for me. First it was fear to put the drink down. What was I going to do without my best friend and answer to all of lifes problems? How could I go for an entire day without a drink? That used to be my fear and it kept me drunk for years. When I got sober I still had so many fears. Mainly how would I deal with life on lifes terms without my crutch that took me out for hours on end. I had a lot of fear but I followed the suggestions and went to meetings, got numbers, picked up the phone and asked for help like I was told. I had the gift of desperation and when you have nothing to lose and everything to gain it doesn't seem so hard to try it. I listened in meetings, read the first 63 pages of the Big Book and started feeling Hope. I had trouble with living life on lifes terms and people, places and things got to me. I also had to learn to identify and not compare myself to others in meetings. We all are different people with the same disease from all walks of life with the common problem, alcoholism. The old timers told me that my fears would pass if I kept coming back. They were right. It did not happen overnight but my obsession to drink was gone and I had hope which kept me going to meetings. The fear started to melt away and was replaced with determination. One day grew to a week, a month, 3 months, a year! I started working the steps and then a power greater than myself emerged and it was like I started feeling calm about most everything including my future. I still feel that way today. My goal down the road is to work steps 10, 11, and 12 on a daily basis. When you see happy people in AA it is like they are not just sober but spiritually fit also. With that goal in mind I hope to live a life free from a lot of the unfounded fear I used to have. Peace. Kelly :)


Member: BABE
Location: stand up girl.....
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 2:28:15 AM

Comments

Change or be changed? Change or go insane? Change your perceptions? Change your ginchies :) Change your mind?(back to change your perceptions... what's that? you want an example?..okay... stay tuned for the solution and recipie for how to examine your beliefs. DO IT TODAY! DON'T WAIT!.... and if you act now; you'll get a handsome shiney gold jacket pin of your very own at no extra cost to your self... and here's the best part; your friends (if you have any) and family will thank you. Yes you'll enjoy fun filled relaxing serenity at least once or twice a week, yes you'll appreciate less hassles, confrontations and arguments! almost as much as your subjects. So don't delay! examine yourself today!.. the aa wayj! whoo hooo eeeeee :) brack brack slap and a smack! love those alkie hoolics..


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 8:04:57 AM

Comments

Kelly once again you are posting on the wrong page,you are the Queen of the early sobrity page.The newbies dont know any different and if you dont know what you are talking about then that is where you belong.We dont read the BBB(BIG BOOK OF BULLSHIT)on this page.We are past that stage here on the discussion page.So go back to the ES page and be helpful instead of being a pain in the butt on our page.


Member: I'M A MIRACLE
Location:
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 8:12:14 AM

Comments

Kelly,the game of charades is quite popular in the meeting halls.Of course doing anything new at first is intimidating and if you do enough of anything long enough the fear of doing it will subside.And you think that is a miracle that an oldtimer told you about.Oldtimers only know what they were told and they are telling you the same thing.Take a big bite if you are going to take a bite.Get well soon Kelly.


Member: Bob
Location: UK
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 8:41:23 AM

Comments

Hi Bob here - alcoholic. Wait a minute guys, doesn't Kelly mean - just for today as in one more day. Not 'just today'. That's thew way I read her share anyway. It's a while since I've read this page. I got a lot out of the shares this time. Thanks to Dawn who said 'TODAY THE ONLY FEAR I HAVE IS A HEALTHY FEAR'. Yup .. I got a good life now but it wasn't always like that. I'm an alcoholic in recovery and every day I walk a little farther along the tightrope knowing that I have trust in my HP to help me keep my balance. My part of the deal is not to take a drink and to try to live my life according to the steps. Thankfully I've a lot of support from my friends in the AA and my family. So although its nearer ninety days than nine hundred for me, the quality of life continues to improve one-day-at-a-time. Thanks for being here


Member: Smokey
Location: not in the mountains
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 9:36:42 AM

Comments

“Fear to change”. When my mind is filled with filled fear, I become like an ice cube frozen in a man-made mold never changing my composition, always remaining solid and cold. When someone takes me from the tray and slips me into a warm liquid, I am forced to change my shape and color. When I am forced to change against my will, I find myself reverting back to old ways, old patterns, old attitudes, back when alcohol was being consumed, becoming that ugly, hateful, angry, arrogant, defiant, selfish, tormented person. To avoid dancing with the stranger in my past, I do what is suggested in the AA program: I change willingly. I’m not saying that change is easy for me because at times I find myself gritting my teeth, digging my heals into the sand. It is in the surrendering that I find I win unimaginable joy, that God does do things I cannot do for myself, that the AA promises really do come true and that slowly I am becoming the person I want to be.


Member: On Fear
Location: My Take
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 10:15:51 AM

Comments

{{{Fear perpetuates fear}}}. Just look at this website. One person instilling fear can scare everything good away. But really who is the one full of the most fear??? The person perpetuating it or the ones being scared away?


Member: Loretta Case
Location: N.C.
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 10:43:42 AM

Comments

Fear is adirect result of a lack of faith, and faith puts fear on the run. Those were my Sponsors words in 1994 & still are the same words different Sponsor today. I believe I'm sober due to the Grace of God no more no less, and the belief is based on faith.


Member: Amy M
Location: SW Iowa
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 11:00:09 AM

Comments

"Fear of Change" The only thing consistent in life is change. FEAR- before F**k Everything And Run FEAR- today Face Everything And Recover Each day is a new begining. I may choose my actions and reactions for today, but I also get to live by my consiquences. TODAY IS A GREAT DAY TO BE SOBER!


Member: Bobby De Niro
Location: NY,NY
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 11:07:11 AM

Comments

Hey I got news for you fellows- I got your fear up here! See this? this is your fear .


Member: team mate
Location: AK
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 11:35:57 AM

Comments

I find fear of any type a challenge these days. With my hp as my team partner, It's a win, win situation. Even if things don't turn out the way "I" expect, there is a reason and we still win.


Member: Susan A.
Location: Venon, Connecticut
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 12:13:41 PM

Comments

Hi All, I'm Susan and I'm an Alcoholic. Thanks, Mike H., for the topic. I especially relate to being more 'comfortable' just existing (It was a false comfort, but felt a lot safer). Underlaying most of my fears were/are the inner belief "I'd fail somehow" (I loose), and "You'll judge me less-than" (I loose). The first big hurtle for me was Fear of changing from depending on the bottle, to facing life without my crutch - that was HUGE. Each time I took action to try something new that would help me get & stay sober, I first was afraid and needed to walk through the fear, try to have some belief/faith, and DO the action. Remember going to a meeting the first time, or calling to talk with a person you just met the first time, or telling the truth for the first time? I still tend to resist some changes, while I can embrace others right away. I'm glad I know that I can stretch myself, grow and develope to meet whatever change is in my path. This allows me to be a lot more 'in life' and 'a part of my fellows'. I trust God to give me the power to grow through change, to adapt and live well if I remain willing. Like I heard a lot in the early meetings I went to - If you're going to worry, why pray. And if you're going to pray, why worry. Thanks, All, for being here.


Member: Marti H
Location: Portland
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 1:13:10 PM

Comments

Fear: False Evidence Appearing Real


Member: Dawn
Location: NY NJ
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 1:38:44 PM

Comments

SMOKEY...LOVE YOUR COMMENTS Fear can be a good thing..it keeps us from the YETS!! I fear the YETS...I fear this Disease where it can take me where I could go...BUT I have tools that this program gives that enables me to keep it a healthy fear and just do the next right thing.... LIKE...going sky diving...10,000 feet up and trying it on my own when someone more experienced is handing me a parachute but I am resistant and grab one on my own and JUMP...realizing that on my own I grabbed a nap sack..10,000 feet in the air..falling to my death..that is fear..but if I take the hand of the next alcoholic..which is what the program is about and listen to their experience strength and hope..then I take the parachute handed to me and I am able to be 10,000 feet in the air knowing I will land safely..and enjoy the scenery and rely upon GOd's wind to carry me through.. HAVE A GREAT SOBER DAY ALL


Member: Lisa S
Location: Portland, OR
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 3:43:24 PM

Comments

It is comforting to some degree to know that we all have fearful thoughts and concerns. But ever since we were kids we have known this fear. We expected it and naturally dealt with it. UNTIL we discovered a way to modify that fear. With chemicals. What a wonder potion! Now that we are on the road to recovery, we are relearning to deal with all fears in our lives the way GOD created us to do. Try to think back as to what it was like facing those fears as children. Is it harder now? Why? Should it be harder? Is it really harder? Because of the chemicals? Now that I have realized that the fear of most life situations aren't much harder to deal with, I know the real challenge is not using alcohol. Wow! Instant elimination of a problem to deal with!


Member: Joe B.
Location: Charleston,WV
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 4:45:50 PM

Comments

Fear and Pride, What buggers they are!


Member: TOM M
Location: SC
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 6:04:04 PM

Comments

Day 12. I have feared not being drunk for 12 years. Then I began fearing being sober. Until today, feared anyone knowing that I needed AA in order to quit drinking. Today I have proudly shown off my little white chip. I want everyone to know that I'm trying to better myself. I am beginning to feel the confidence build in me. I have you guys and my home group to thanks.


Member: DAVID D.
Location:
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 7:17:45 PM

Comments

I HAVE MET ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO AFTER YEARS OF CLEAN TIME HAVE COME BACK TO A.A. BECAUSE THEY HAVE HAD A RELAPSE. I ALWAYS ASK THEM THE SAME QUESTION. " WHAT HAPPENED" THEY HAVE ALL ANSWERED MY QUESTION WITH THE SAME RESPONSE. THEY ALL TELL ME "I QUIT GOING TO A.A." I KNOW I'M FAR FROM ALL KNOWING AND I HAVEN'T SEEN IT ALL BUT IN 15 YEARS OF 2-4 FACE TO FACE MEETINGS A WEEK AND EVERY TIME GETTING THE SAME ANSWER , I THINK H.P. IS TELLING ME SOMETHING .


Member: CAMI B
Location: WY
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 8:52:25 PM

Comments

HELLO, I TOO WAS AFRAID OF CHANGE, REMEMBER IN REAL EARLY SOBRIETY SOMEONE HAD REARRANGED ALL THE FURNITURE AND WALL HANGINGS AT THE ALANO CLUB I BELONGED TO AND I MOVED IT ALL BACK TO THE WAY IT WAS. I DREADED CHANGE OF ANY KIND, MY WISE AND PATIENT SPONSOR TOLD ME THAT AS LONG AS I WAS WORKING THE PROGRAM CHANGE WAS GOING TO HAPPEN WHETHER I LIKED IT OR NOT! MY FRIENDS WOULD CHANGE, MY THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS WOULD CHANGE, MY ATTITUDE AND MY LIFE WOULD CHANGE. WHEN THEY SAY "IT" GETS BETTER, I HAVE COME TO BELIEVE THAT IT HAS BEEN "I' WHO HAS GOTTEN BETTER BECAUSE LIFE AS I KNEW IT TO BE AND BELIEVED IT WOULD ALWAYS BE, ISN'T AT ALL WHAT HAS TRANSPIRED AS MY OWN TRANSFORMATION HAS AND STILL CONTINUES TO TAKE PLACE AS LONG AS I EMBRACE THE CHANGES, IN SPITE OF THE PAIN OR JOY THAT COMES WITH WHATEVER I AM GROWING THROUGH. SO DON'T BE SO HARD ON YOURSELF, LEARN TO TRUST IN THE PROCESS OF YOUR OWN PERSONAL FOOTSTEPS.


Member: Marv L
Location: Ms
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 10:38:11 PM

Comments

Hi,Im Marv,recovering alcoholic.Glad for this site;it helps when you share your experience,strength and hope. Have learned a lot since I was that newcomer,22 years ago! Not sure I can add anything to the constructive words weitten about fear,have found I can sure handle it better sober than I ever did drunk! Love sosmething I read (cant remember who is the author) but was entitled "Ode to the Wild Goose"Kind of tells my story,and hope: "May He who guides thru dark uncharted skies,your sure,unerring flight, in the dark ways I too must go alone,be there to guide my feet aright." Nature teaches me fear is normal;AA taught me I can trust my higher power.All I wanted was help to stop drinking--what I got was a way of life that helps me deal with reality.Thanks for being here!


Member: Sunshine
Location: PA
Date: 10/8/2003
Time: 10:58:43 PM

Comments

Kelly, "That is true 12th step work. ***It is a very sick world in your head when you have to (try) to convince others with deceit."*** is what you referred to me when you posted... I'm a little slow. Could you elaborate? I'm not following.


Member: Susan
Location: West Michigan
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 12:25:20 AM

Comments

The fear of change. I won't say during "Early Recovery" as I am still in "Early Recovery"; however, I will say that when I first became a member of AA, I feared change - change of anything. I feared not going to bars, not drinking, going to meetings, getting a sponsor, working the steps, losing relationships with those I drank with, moving, getting a job, parenting. You name the change--I feared it. However, I was desperate. I needed to change. I hung in there. Like Snoopy, I hung. Today, I changed jobs (got a job; changed residences (moved), changed how I parent (rewarding good behavior instead of punishing bad), changed my relationships from non-recovering alcoholics and addicts to recovering alcoholics and christians. I changed hangouts from bars to AA tables, AA picnics, and churches. To sum it up, change for me is G-R-E-A-T. I love it and I love the AA Program. Let's continue to share our strenght, experiences, and hope. Without God, I can do Nothing; However, all things are Possible to Me BeCause "I Believe". God Bless You All.


Member: leah D.
Location: Ca.
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 1:40:44 AM

Comments

This is a spiritual program. Fear and faith can not occupy the same space at the same time. The third step says "made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understand him". I had to fire my old conception of God and get a new higher powered one. I believe the result was nil until I let go absolutely. Then there was the whole idea of abandoning myself to God as I understood him. My litle thoughts and plans did'nt seem that big any more. The universe got bigger and i got smaller. The inventory process helped that to happen. This is an awesome program. Thanx for letting me share


Member: Jodie
Location: Philadelphia
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 3:00:01 AM

Comments

My name is Jodie & I am an alcoholic, sober alittle over one year. I am new to being someone else's sponsor. Recently, three new girls asked me to take them through the Steps as they are in the Big Book, and that's how I was shown as well. I am very grateful for this opportunity & I believe, like the Big Book says "faith without works is dead'. Also, I was taught that we don't pick & choose who we are to help. Still, I have been feeling depleted & wiped out. I pray that God use me to carry AA's message to these new members, but I can't help but feel completely drained. Is this normal for someone who is new to working with others? Am I doing something wrong? I take a lot of commiments on top of spending hours going through the Big Book with these new girls & still taking care of my own recovery. I am just feeling wiped. Any suggestions?


Member: Kelly M
Location: NH
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 8:36:05 AM

Comments

For ((Sunshine)): No, that was not for you at all. That was for someone else that in their divine mission to rescue us AA's from what they percieve as a horrible life in AA. They pretend and make up other posters to agree with themelves but it is really the same person posting under different aliases, hence deceit. Nothing to do with you Sunshine! This person says they have a long time sober but it is "dry" sobriety which happens when you don't do the Steps. This is why they get so nasty when faced with the truth as laid out in the Big Book because they never did the work. Of what I have learned in the Steps this flamer is described in The Big Book on the bottom of page 60 and 61. "Any life run on self-will can hardly be a success, we are almost always in collision with something or somebody". "If only people would do as he wished, Is he not a victim of the delusion that he can wrest satisfaction and happiness out of his world if he only manages well?" "Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self delusion, self seeking and self pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. The answer I think, is at the bottom of page 62. "We had to have Gods help". "First of all we had to quit playing God. It didn't work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our director. He is the Principal; and we are his agents. He is the father, and we are His children". This is (Step 2) work and without it you may not drink but after years of being as dry as a pop-corn fart you can become mean, egotistical, controlling, selfish and dishonest. Page 61 says: "Is it not evident to all the rest of the players that these are the things he wants? And do not his actions make each of them want to retaliate. Is he not, even in his best moments a producer of confusion rather than harmony?". BINGO! For me this person is merely irritating and as it says in the BB to treat him as you would a sick friend. By allowing him to rent space in my head he is blocking God, and shutting me off from the sunlight of the spirit, (all the good stuff I read here). Lastly, I'm not afraid of you or anything you have to say and I'm sure you will have a lot to say after reading this. Your opinion means less than nothing to me. I earned my seat here and I am working the program and am trying to pass it on to another drunk. I'm not going away. Kelly


Member: Thoreau and Frost
Location: Walden's Pond and The Road Less Traveled By
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 10:31:12 AM

Comments

Hooray for the Big Book Thumper! You really made me small there, deflated my bloated ego. I could understand though that in your life you are only familiar with the Bible and the Big Book, and I'm sorry if I was a literature major with a psychology minor in college. I guess you are comfortable inside the garden of Eden following God's order not to take the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to have eternal life, while I wanted to know its wisdom of good and evil hence I am ousted and have to suffer and rejected, just like the Light Carrier of God Lucifer whereupon his wisdom of the difference between Light from Darkness made him doomed to hell forever. I don't blame you , you are one of God's angels, the good guys. Possibly one of those guardian angels that barred man from coming back to that garden of Eden. (The reason perhaps why man bombs the heck out of that place in the present time). and Christ's going against the established jewsih traditions and beliefs to cause his crucifixion. Country Bumpkin Mentality Comfort Zone, I wish I was there but you have to pay the price for truth and for some of us that's what worth pursuing for.


Member: Joel
Location:
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 11:31:53 AM

Comments

Hi Jodie, Wow, sounds like you have quite a bit on your plate! I'm reminded of a saying I've been hearing frequently lately..."Whenever anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help, I want the hand of AA to be there. And for that, I am responsible." Sometimes that hand isn't mine, and my part is to point that individual towards a more capable/available hand. I'm simply not as useful to God when I'm wiped out, and I don't like that. So I've chosen to focus on quality, rather than quantity, which happens to be the exact opposite of how I used to think! I'd suggest talking to your sponser, and bringing up your topic at meetings, as it's a very good one! Take care.


Member: Sunshine
Location: PA
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 12:06:02 PM

Comments

Hi Kelly, I'm really glad you're not going away. You have a lot of good stuff to pass on. I detect defensiveness in your tone. If there was something in my post or my tone that offended you, I apologize. My questioning was to help me understand what I was reading (just as I had said in my post). Not meant to offend. See, I take what I need & leave the reast. I'm not here or in the meetings to argue anyone's point, but when I don't understand something I have no problem asking for clearity. Not my problem if someone chooses to get defensive. It is my problem when I CHOOSE to get defensive. Thanks for your response. Have a good day.


Member: the mav
Location: first time here this week
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 12:08:19 PM

Comments

As usual Kelly from New Hampshire, the state of homosexual decadence, what a surprise, is the one providing all the deceit neccesary to continue on the AA tradition of deceit and lies. How would that psychopath newbie know what I have or have not done as I have done the steps over and over and know that stupid big book better than anyone, so what! The greatest deceit is to herself as she's so dumb she actually believes it's me, the mav, posting back and forth to myself, how paranoid is that? Very as it plainly shows that she knows nothing about the program she claims to love. I mean damn, does anybodty here really need someone to quote that dumbass book over and over when we have all read it a bazillion times? If you do, she's your gal, but funny thing is this---They say the only thing it promises you is that you won't drink---Isn't that a "dry drunk," JUST LIKE KELLYGIRL???? wuuuuuuu--huuuuuuuuuuu honey-pie sugar-pie..... come on now, everybody sing along.........here we go....... sweet kellydrydrunkessgirl, honeypie, sugarpie, wwwuuuuuuuuuuu---- huuuuuuu


Member: the mav
Location: first time here this week
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 12:08:35 PM

Comments

As usual Kelly from New Hampshire, the state of homosexual decadence, what a surprise, is the one providing all the deceit neccesary to continue on the AA tradition of deceit and lies. How would that psychopath newbie know what I have or have not done as I have done the steps over and over and know that stupid big book better than anyone, so what! The greatest deceit is to herself as she's so dumb she actually believes it's me, the mav, posting back and forth to myself, how paranoid is that? Very as it plainly shows that she knows nothing about the program she claims to love. I mean damn, does anybodty here really need someone to quote that dumbass book over and over when we have all read it a bazillion times? If you do, she's your gal, but funny thing is this---They say the only thing it promises you is that you won't drink---Isn't that a "dry drunk," JUST LIKE KELLYGIRL???? wuuuuuuu--huuuuuuuuuuu honey-pie sugar-pie..... come on now, everybody sing along.........here we go....... sweet kellydrydrunkessgirl, honeypie, sugarpie, wwwuuuuuuuuuuu---- huuuuuuu


Member: mav
Location: second time here
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 12:10:47 PM

Comments

Hey Thoreau and Frost]]] Great stuff, you instantly restored my faith in mankind, right after kellygirl was busy trying to dash it. Hey, let's say a prayer for her and remember---she's NEW, give her time.....


Member: mav
Location: #3
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 12:16:27 PM

Comments

defensive? Kelly? Imagine that kellygirl, someone else thinks you're nuts too, or is it just me posting to myself again? Damn girl, get a grip would ya?


Member: OLDTIMER
Location:
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 12:40:28 PM

Comments

Kelly read the whole big book to us starting on page 1.You have been told to stay on the early sobriety page.As an oldtimer I will have to report your inability to do what you are told to the GSO in New York.I know that you do not want that to happen so do as you are told Kelly.Starting right now .


Member: Dawn
Location: NY NJ
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 12:58:53 PM

Comments

I AM SORRY...but I do not know all the details of what is going on with Kelly but..... It sounds to me like its a cry for HELP. Do not discourage someone from going anywhere to express thoughts. Maybe she is just in a bad place. We are so quick to pass judgement on another person...we fail to really read between the lines...maybe she is not on the beginners page because she is seeking answers and does not know how to express them. This is not about bashing another person or sitting in judgement of them...we do not know what everyone's real story is. Maybe just MAYBE she is hurting...Lets not be so hasty lets try to put ourselves in another person's shoes and have some empathy. HOPE YOU ALL ARE GRACED WITH GODLY PEACE TODAY SOBERLY


Member: Dawn
Location: NY NJ
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 1:01:56 PM

Comments

WHEN ANOTHER PERSON REACHES OUT FOR HELP I WANT THE HAND OF AA TO BE THERE...MY HAND


Member: Tom
Location: just for Kelly if she ventures outside of the ES room again
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 7:55:00 PM

Comments

Hi everyone,just checking in to let everyone know that everything is going good and still drink free and that is a good thing.I am enclosing a couple of links that are must reads for anyone in our wonderful program.After reading the links you will find a box at the bottom of the page and in that box is a picture of the wonderful founder of our program Bill W..Just click on the picture of Bill W. and a wealth of information will be displayed for your reading pleasure and it is all true.Here are the links:What's Good About AA? What's Not Good About AA? Here are the links:http://www.aadeprogramming.com/reclaim/orange-whats_good.html http://www.aadeprogramming.com/reclaim/orange-not_good.html


Member: Tom
Location: Just for Kelly
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 8:05:37 PM

Comments

Hi everyone,just checking in to let everyone know that everything is going good and still drink free and that is a good thing.I am enclosing a couple of links that are must reads for anyone in our wonderful program.After reading the links you will find a box at the bottom of the page and in that box is a picture of the wonderful founder of our program Bill W..Just click on the picture of Bill W. and a wealth of information will be displayed for your reading pleasure and it is all true.Here are the links:What's Good About AA? What's Not Good About AA? Here are the links:http://www.aadeprogramming.com/reclaim/orange-whats_good.html http://www.aadeprogramming.com/reclaim/orange-not_good.html


Member: Mike M
Location: USA
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 9:35:00 PM

Comments

Links are to site presenting false and misleading but mildly amusing opinion. One should understand the Fellowship of AA from a factual source. True that fellowship of AA is not without it's shortcomings.


Member: Arnold
Location:
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 9:39:44 PM

Comments

Mike M.,The program as a whole is a shortcoming in itself.Those links appear to be right on the money.There is no picture of the Infallible One Bill W..But by clicking on the fruit at the bottom of the page it reveals the whole truth like it or not.


Member: duh
Location:
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 10:35:52 PM

Comments

Dawn,Kelly is not seeking answers,read her numerous post again.She is strictly about giving answers.


Member: Jodie
Location: Philadelphia
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 11:19:07 PM

Comments

Tom, I appreciate your posts & the way they challenge my thinking. I found the site you posted intriguing.


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 11:30:08 PM

Comments

Jodie,just where is your thinking for it to need to be challenged.Just click on the fruit on the bottom of the page and there is loterally days of positive reading.


Member: Jodie
Location: Philadelphia
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 11:49:08 PM

Comments

Tom, Thank you so much for that posted site. I especially, enjoyed the article about AA & Gender. I have been feeling just like what is described in that article, & I am now in therapy for self-esteem issues that were not addressed when I took the 12 steps. Although, I still feel that the 12 steps have helped me in many ways, where the self esteem issues were concerned I had to seek professional help. Also, I always have hated that chapter 'To the wives'. I can not say that I am ready to up & leave AA, because the steps do help me. Plus, I have always known the truth about Bill Wilson & his womanizing. To share these things in AA is taboo, unfortunately. Sometimes, I just feel so well from prayer & meditating & review of my day; only to go to a meeting have that good feeling sucked right out of me! I like that your posts have helped me to think outside the box, thanks again!


Member: Ellen
Location: Oakdale, CA
Date: 10/9/2003
Time: 11:55:41 PM

Comments

Les, It was FDR, in his inagural speech, re: nothing to fear but fear itself. ellen


Member: Tom
Location: especially for the meeting guru RICH R. FROM THE HUB
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 12:14:02 AM

Comments

Jodie,to share anything of absolute truth is taboo in AA.AA is at best should be used as a jumpstart to living a life without alcohol and the steps should cover any other addiction that may ever come.As you know there are a lot of different programs that use the 12 step method and believe it or not there are people who go to several of these different groups all on the same day.Can you imagine working the same steps several different times.Shit 1 step 4 effort is enough for anybody.It is my belief that these people are in fact hooked on meetings and yes surely they use their first journal and apply that step work to the other different programs.They are in need of MA (MEEETERS ANONYMOUS)to overcome their obsessive behavior and addiction to meetings.More than likely you have derived all that you ever will from the repetitive behavior that you have been engaged in,but hey it keeps you busy and unstable as it is continuing to suck the life out of you everytime that you go and allow for it to happen


Member: Jodie
Location: Philadelphia
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 12:26:24 AM

Comments

Tom, the site you posted, like I said was intriguing & some of it was 'true' & yet some was just a different kind of orthodox thinking. I would just like to find my own way through my journey, but thanks for the information.


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 8:13:13 AM

Comments

JODIE,JOURNEY ON OR YOU CAN USE THE TOOLS LAID AT YOUR FEET,ALL OF THEM.YOU DRAINED BECAUSE AA HAS TAKEN OVER YOUR LIFE,BUT JOURNEY ON,SOMEWBODY HAS TO DO IT.


Member: It is clear
Location:
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 8:26:08 AM

Comments

Kelly and Sunshine are the same person,just thought everyone should know.


Member: Kelly M
Location: NH
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 9:08:59 AM

Comments

Wow, it worked! You came right to me. I flushed you out with the truth. Pretty Cool... ;) This BIG BOOK stuff really works. I think I'll continue to do the remaining 8 Steps and see what else I can learn about myself. I'm just looking for answers to lifes persistant problems without the beer goggles on. Change takes time. It took drinking 13 years to bring me to my knees so I might as well give this way of life a year or two. Today I fear no man, except God... Kelly :)


Member: Roy
Location: on the toilet
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 2:19:55 PM

Comments

Kelly do you really think it is wise to trade beer goggles for rose colored glasses,Why not try life without any goggles or glasses on.Get rid of all of your crutches just like you did with your boyfriend.Kelly the big book works if you are out of toilet paper and something to wipe yourself.Desperate times calls for desperate measures,use page 89 it wipes the best.


Member: Kim D.
Location: Bridgewater
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 3:07:08 PM

Comments

I have read somewhere, and I tend to agree with this statement, that lasting change comes from first, a WILLINGNESS to change - then ACCEPTANCE - and as a result SPIRITUAL GROWTH will occur. I have fought tooth and nail in my life when it has come to changing... and that was because I had to much FEAR to be willing to change... Today I replace that fear with FAITH and acceptance. The results are marvelous. TTFN~


Member: C W
Location: NWONOT
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 3:32:15 PM

Comments

Change, means going from a known state to an unknown, or new state of being. Okay, when we change our old self is no longer with us, at least that is our perception, although not entierly accurate. We are who we are, regardless, and our actions define us more than our words. So for me I can voice all sorts of opinions, but the truth is I am who I do. And what do I do, well, I am not perfect, I lust, I love, and I sometimes hate. So whatever is unhealthy is usually born out of resistance to the unknown, or the familiarity with the comforts of my current self. So I usually will put myself out there and risk my self, to find what survives on the other side, because whatever does survive such introspection is usually of God, and my old survival instincts, born of fear are reduced in their ability to rule my life. However, risk presents a threat, and at times, I have failed, yep, failed. So what, at least I can go through life, sober, knowing I've given it my best. Sobriety is not necessairly for the faint hearted, however, in the short run it appears threatning to my old self, over time, it proves to be the true easier and softer way.


Member: Tracy
Location: UK
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 4:03:23 PM

Comments

CW~ Sobriety isn't for the faint hearted! yeah like that one


Member: Dilemma's from the pot
Location:
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 5:29:44 PM

Comments

The meds are a good thing and will make life easier for anyone who needs them.A higher power,if effective would make the need for any medications obsolete or any conditions that require any kind of medicine. The steps are not meant to have to be worked numerous times,once is enough and they would work if the steps would actually work.Listen to what your doctor tells you or perhaps a second opinion from another doctor,but people in the program will not have a clue as to want is good or is not good for you.Most do not even know what is good for themselves.True or False.


Member: James W.
Location: White House Tn.
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 8:21:23 PM

Comments

As a man new to the program I am fearful as hell I was in the armed forces for ten years I am a gulf war vet. I was never afraid of death or injury.But haveing only been sober 48 hrs I am frightened at a level I never new existed. I have always believed in (my higher power)God as he is known to me although I maynot have ever gotten the things I asked him for in the way I wanted them he did give me exactly what I asked for because he took what I wanted and gave it to me in the text that he wanted me to have it.Just like the other night I was so depressed I layed in my bed half drunk and cried as I prayed for happiness in my personal life and to not be alone anymore.I was actually asking for love and companionship again and insted he gave me his love and how he did that was to plant the seed in me to make the choice to change my lifestyle and my circle of friends and as I change one day at a time I will find that happiness and companship and physical love I have been missing for the last 20 yrs.For the last 5 yrs I have had a fear or relationships because I saw them all end and now I know why they could not deal with my real relationship and that was my love affair with alchol.


Member: CHRIS H.
Location: GREEN BAY WI.
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 8:45:40 PM

Comments

HI I'M CHRIS I'M AN ALCOHOLIC I'M NEW TO THIS SITE JUST BROWSING FOR NOW


Member: Cameron S.
Location: Eath (I think)
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 9:36:24 PM

Comments

HI, Alcoholic My name is Cameron. Just surfing but wanted to raise my hand and say hello!


Member: Jackie
Location: MN
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 9:40:28 PM

Comments

Hey, welcome James - man did you pin point my last relationships over the years, exactly the same with me. I have never had a sober relationship, I hope to one day. It scares me, and sometimes I think I won't have one because I don't go out and party anymore. But it was no good when I did. (((James))) just glad to hear something again to know I am not alone :) PEACE Jackie


Member: paul p
Location: michigan
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 9:52:00 PM

Comments

Speaking of change, I just read and interesting quote from a book I am reeding. "only in growth, reform and change, paradoxically enough, is true security to be found" God bless paul


Member: James W.
Location: White House TN
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 9:52:19 PM

Comments

Thank you jackie and I think my turning point was a prayer sent to me by my last relationship and I still know she loves me or why would she have sent me thisBEAUTIFUL PRAYER I asked God to take away my habit. God said, No. It is not for me to take away, but for you to give it up. I asked God to make my handicapped child whole. God said, No. His spirit is whole, his body is only temporary I asked God to grant me patience. God said, No. Patience is a byproduct of tribulations; it isn't granted, it is learned. I asked God to give me happiness. God said, No. I give you blessings; Happiness is up to you. I asked God to spare me pain. God said, No. Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares and brings you closer to me. I asked God to make my spirit grow. God said, No. You must grow on your own! , but I will prune you to make you fruitful. I asked God for all things that I might enjoy life. God said, No. I will give you life, so that you may enjoy all things. I ask God to help me LOVE others, as much as He loves me. God said...Ahhhh, finally you have the idea. If you love God, send this to ten people and back to the person that sent it. THIS DAY IS YOURS DON'T THROW IT AWAY May God Bless You, "To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world


Member: Pauper Prince
Location: Not in a Moralizing Place
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 10:14:08 PM

Comments

Hi I'm a pauper and I'm alcoholic. Good topic! I specifically find it very helpful to read those sites from Tom. "Thanks for the information, subliminal dummy tit,and MTV,everytime I make two steps forward I find myself taking three steps back.."(I could not help but play the song in my head of Van Morrison with those lines). It's very enlightening to give two sides of the coin. Both are very valid reasons. I also like CW, are you a Catholic Worker from (location- And What Not?) The ggod support corrrespondence between the 2 ladies Sunshine and Kelly, the philosophising of some other folks, it's all too good. Actually for me it's much easier not to think, I mean humans are not really rational beings, and rationality has always the 2 sides of it. But most of the time people don't think, most of what they do regularly are spontaneous behavior. Our waking state is actually like a dream. We try to grasp consciousness but then they escape us. We try to fool ourselves of being so sure of our convictions but it is only ourselves that we really want to persuade because we don't believe our own selves, we are scared by the truth of the nakedness of ourselves in the midst of chaos and our death. We want to change but into what? And what are we? We constantly change from one thing to another or more precisely we change to become what we have been before and thinking about who we are and what we are not is in a sense makes up for all this illusion called reality. Forgive me my Higher Power is the God of the Austrailian Aborigines and the psychology of Bill W.'s shrink Dr. Carl Jung. Thanks you, forgive me for me being primitive and saying about "college" stuff. Pure baloney!


Member: Sunshine
Location: PA
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 10:57:30 PM

Comments

Hi James, Welcome & thanks for both of your posts. I also received that email from a friend of mine. Good Stuff.


Member: Watcher
Location: Everywhere
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 11:03:48 PM

Comments

From the Guidlines for this Meeting: "and that each person try to share only once per week (this is not a chat room)" Any??????????????????????s Sunshine


Member: Sunshine
Location: PA
Date: 10/10/2003
Time: 11:28:38 PM

Comments

:)


Member: Rick
Location: FL
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 5:46:40 AM

Comments

Hey, change is work and the fear of the work is what freezes alot of people.Be smart,dont change the channel because the end of the movie might bring you to tears. Pain is an important part of growing. We invest alot of time in many things and the fear of pain or work will rob us of the payoff if we let it. DO THE WORK.


Member: Bermuda Stu
Location: Corfu, Greece.
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 5:49:26 AM

Comments

My name is Stuart and I am an alcoholic, in Greece. I am grateful to be here and sober. Have never been in an online 'meeting' before, but it helped a lot last night when I needed to go to a meeting, but there just wasn't any on Corfu, in english, to get to (so I phoned my sponser back in Scotland). My point is that, for a year and a half, I was quite content in my protective bubble of a few meetings a week, but things have changed. We're a month into a six month trip around the world. Meetings are everywhere, and the messages are often the same and our fellows are welcoming as ever. I had to change, from the way I used to be, (that's why I went to A.A. - to change the way I felt). This summer, things have changed a lot, even though it was terrifying. I got married (sober)to lovely girl , wrote a book, moved out of our flat, left my A.A. buddies behind and am now going to new meetings in new places, which was hard but let me tell you, it is real fun. Point is, none of the were as hard as I built them up to be. I believe if I keep A.A. first in my life, and EVERYTHING else secondary I might stand a chance. (But don't tell my new wife that :) Thank everyone for writing and making it a meeting for me.


Member: GET A GRIP STU
Location:
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 9:05:50 AM

Comments

Stu,if you make AA first in your life it will be the only life you will have as the new wife will leave your ass.LMAO


Member: Charlie
Location: Missouri
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 12:38:06 PM

Comments

Tom--it is quite apparent that you talk to yourself under the pretense of different people. Some are sicker than others. Outside help is sometimes needed.


Member: Nancy H
Location: Nevada
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 2:25:36 PM

Comments

Hi all. this is a good topic. as i read the shares something hit me that i never thought of before. change is necessary to achieve any growth, because no change means stagnation. like a stagnant pond, muk, and slime, and gross things grow in a stagnant pond. it's the same with us. without change there is no new growth. old patterns and ideas and thoughts just float around growing mold in our heads. the shitty comittee takes over. coming to meetings, cyber meetings included, helps new growth and ideas flow into us and flush out the old garbage. thanks for letting me share. nhaack@wmconnect.com


Member: Nancy H
Location: Nevada
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 3:26:16 PM

Comments

Hi all. this is a good topic. as i read the shares something hit me that i never thought of before. change is necessary to achieve any growth, because no change means stagnation. like a stagnant pond, muk, and slime, and gross things grow in a stagnant pond. it's the same with us. without change there is no new growth. old patterns and ideas and thoughts just float around growing mold in our heads. the shitty comittee takes over. coming to meetings, cyber meetings included, helps new growth and ideas flow into us and flush out the old garbage. thanks for letting me share. nhaack@wmconnect.com


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 3:41:33 PM

Comments

Charlie,my name is Tom and I am no longer an alcoholic.I post from the heart and I have no need to post under false pretenses.Take what you want and leave the rest.Perhaps you currently engage in such activity or have in the past but as for me I dont have a desire to mumble to myself.I did enough of that when I was a drunk.You are correct in saying that some are sicker than others,oh wait where did you hear that saying it sounds so original.You appear to be one of the sicker ones.Get yourself some outside help as AA is not doing it for obviously but it appears that you are developing a whole new language.


Member: to the wannabe original thinker
Location: :)
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 3:57:29 PM

Comments

"Take what you want and leave the rest"...how original, Tom.


Member: SMS
Location: Tennesse
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 4:09:42 PM

Comments

For someone who claims not to need AA meetings, a certain contradiction is evident as he sure is posting in this one frequently. I, on the other hand, love many things about AA--meetings included. Thank you everyone for sharing your experience, strength and hope with me throughout the years. Y'all really carry the message.


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 4:11:40 PM

Comments

Dude,the take what you want line was implied to Charlie's shallow thinking.So there is more than 1 like Charlie,sorry did not mean to not recognize you.You have now been recognized,your name is in lights,well they could have been if you would have taken credit for your ignorance,LMAO


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 4:17:05 PM

Comments

SMS,Just trying to help those who cant seem to think for themselves.Read the above links and free yourself from self ignorance.


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 4:25:07 PM

Comments

Just for SMS and Charlie too.There are lots of slogans and definitions of all of the slogans too.ENJOY links:http://www.aadeprogramming.com/reclaim/orange-whats_good.html http://www.aadeprogramming.com/reclaim/orange-not_good.html


Member: Nancy H
Location: Nevada
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 5:25:50 PM

Comments

TOM- i just went to your AA de-programming site. you certainly have a lot of repressed anger at AA. maybe it would help to talk about it. nevadanan


Member: sandy smith
Location: Tallahassee
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 5:41:03 PM

Comments

Hi Everyone new to this sight not new to the program, not sure what to think about what I just read, I do beleive acceptance is the key! and I also beleive we are very good at making problems worse than they really are!


Member: sandy smith
Location: Tallahassee
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 5:42:20 PM

Comments

Hi Everyone new to this sight not new to the program, not sure what to think about what I just read, I do beleive acceptance is the key! and I also beleive we are very good at making problems worse than they really are!


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 6:47:51 PM

Comments

Welcome Sandy,what you just read was the truth and in due time you will be able to accept the truth but for now just dont drink,ok.Nancy ther eis no anger over AA,just sharing that is all.There is nothing to talk about,I've talked and listened for years in the rooms,done the steps and I just try and get all the info that I can about our DISEASE that keeps me on the right track.Nancy be sure an click on the orange at the bottom of th epage on those links and see what all is revealed.From people just like you and me.


Member: Nancy H
Location: Nevada
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 6:58:26 PM

Comments

Tom-I clicked on the orange. There are many valid points. Sorry about my jumping to conclusions. Nancy


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 7:49:50 PM

Comments

Sandy what you just read is the truth.Someday you will realize that but for now just dont drink,OK.Nancy there is no depressed anger here,just sharing that is all.How you get depressed anger out of knowledge being shared is apparently something that you picked up from the meeting halls and the literature that is available.As it is something new to you that you are not accustomed to hearing,perhaps you should think outside of the box in order to comprehend the entire realm of things.


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 7:49:58 PM

Comments

Sandy what you just read is the truth.Someday you will realize that but for now just dont drink,OK.Nancy there is no depressed anger here,just sharing that is all.How you get depressed anger out of knowledge being shared is apparently something that you picked up from the meeting halls and the literature that is available.As it is something new to you that you are not accustomed to hearing,perhaps you should think outside of the box in order to comprehend the entire realm of things.


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 7:56:27 PM

Comments

Apology accepted Nancy,there is enough reading material there to keep you busy reading for at least a day or so.Just because I recommended it for reading dose not necessarily mean that I agree with all of it,but I must admit I agree with about 98% of it.Be sure to read the section that says Pardon Us Mr. Wilson.


Member: Jesse S
Location: 4th dimension
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 9:30:42 PM

Comments

This is the first time I have ever felt the need to check out an "online meeting" (becauseI am a little under the weather). At this point I am not suer what to make of it, or at least this particular discussion. I am trying not to be judgmental... it is certainly hard though. I read some really good comments that were on line with the "fundamental" (i.e. work the steps out the bigbook with a sponsor) brand of AA I try to practice and live. I have also read some real crap!! One post told soemone to "choose" not to drink. If we could "choose" not to drink we would not be alcoholics. The only choices I have are to choose to find God (thus enabling me to stay sober) or to choose to not find God (which will result in me drinking). I simply do not have the power to be able to chose not to drink. So anyways... I would like to thank those people who offered concrete answers as to how they deal with the "fear of change" which mysteriously enough almost always invloves working the steps.


Member: Nancy
Location: Nevada
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 10:26:17 PM

Comments

Ellen it was john f kennedy "nothing to fear but fear itself" nan


Member: George T
Location: MN
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 11:47:16 PM

Comments

This is my first time to an on line meeting. Haven't been to a "real meeting in about 5 years" but I have been sober for over 15 and was a cd counselor for 5 years. Change, nothing I can add to this topic that has not already been said. Lots of good insight. I would like to ask Tom to read the first tradition of AA and if he cannot keep with this tradition. Tom, you have spoken your peace, and eveen though I agree with some of what you have stsated, it's time to get back on topic. Tradition One: Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon AA unity. 1. Am I in my group a healing, mending, integrating person, or am I divisive? What about gossip and taking other members' inventories? 2. Am I a peacemaker? Or do I, with pious preludes such as "just for the sake of discussion," plunge into argument? 3. Am I gentle with those who rub me the wrong way, or am I abrasive? 4. Do I make competitive AA remarks, such as comparing one group with another or contrasting AA in one place with AA in another? 5. Do I put down some AA activities as if I were superior for not participating in this or that aspect of AA? 6. Am I informed about AA as a whole? Do I support, in every way I can, AA as a whole, or just the parts I understand and approve of? 7. Am I as considerate of AA members as I want them to be of me? 8. Do I spout platitudes about love while indulging in and secretly justifying behavior that bristles with hostility? 9. Do I go to enough AA meetings or read enough AA literature to really keep in touch? 10. Do I share with AA all of me, the bad and the good, accepting as well as giving the help of fellowship?


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: 10/11/2003
Time: 11:49:49 PM

Comments

Jesse,whatever way you want to look at it,it is still you ultimately doing the choosing to stop drinking.If you want to blame it on god then do it.If you want to give your deserved credit away then do it.Just dont choose to start drinking again.If you do who will you blame it on then?


Member: Lynn
Location:
Date: 10/12/2003
Time: 12:01:27 AM

Comments

I have to agree with Tom.We chose to drink resulting in us becoming alcoholics.The good news is we also have the choice to stop choosing to drink and that will result in us becoming ex alcoholics with the help of our program in God's time.


Member: Kathy F.
Location: Texas
Date: 10/12/2003
Time: 1:07:27 AM

Comments

I'm Kathy, an alcoholic. I usually experience fear of impending change. Unless I desperately need/want the change.


Member: Joy S
Location: Chas.,SC
Date: 10/12/2003
Time: 2:18:42 AM

Comments

you go TOMM in SC! To meetings! People are getting sober in SC. I am working on 3yrs Jan. and remember my 12th day. Now I try to keep in my mind what I learn from the 12 steps. My life is so much better- thanks to many aspects of AA. I am finding some of the stuff I heard about in those early days. The one thing it's impossible to convey to a newcomer or an active drinker is how genuinely wonderful life can be without a drink. I wouldn't trade anything for my sobriety and the many changes it has brought, and made possible for me. Fear will creep up on you but 'F%#& Everything And Run' is no longer the motto that defines my life. Be willing to accept some help-One Day at a Time. Millions of us help each other stay sober. Best to you & to all.


Member: cec h
Location:
Date: 10/12/2003
Time: 4:05:29 AM

Comments

Tom blow it out your ass